Alchemists and Two-Weapon Fighting / Multiweapon Fighting


Rules Questions


Ok, so I am coming up with ideas for an Alchemist and as I pondered the Half-Orc options I thought about the Vestigial Arm discovery. Now normally I'd take only one arm so I can TWF and hold a shield of some kind.
However this time I thought about taking is twice so I'd have four arms... Would that allow me to TWF with a pair of Falchions? I mean the way I see it is the arms must come out of the torso (most conceivably right below the normal arms). I would guess it is conceivable to hold it as the right/left pair each acting like one arm with double the strength.
Now I realize the TWF rules refer hands but Inevitable, Lhaksharut from bestiary 2 uses a two-handed weapon (spear) as well as others in his 6 total arms.

This brings me to my question specifically about Multiweapon Fighting.
As presented in the bestiary:
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks
with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons
are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with
off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6
penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a
–10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands.
(It has one primary hand, and all the others are off
hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder
RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting
feat for creatures with more than two arms.

My question is do the Improved-TWF and Greater-TWF feats grant additional attacks to the second/third off hands? Put another way, does the "special" section of Multiweapon Fighting extend to the other TWF tree feats.


Hydra wrote:


My question is do the Improved-TWF and Greater-TWF feats grant additional attacks to the second/third off hands? Put another way, does the "special" section of Multiweapon Fighting extend to the other TWF tree feats.

there are a lot of threads debating how to handle fighting with two falchions for a 4-armed alchemist, but as far as multiweapon fighting goes, you can't apply it to a multi-armed alchemist, unfortunately.

vestigial arm discovery wrote:
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).

so, you can hold 4 weapons, but you can still only attack with 2 of them. if you want to get more attacks, take the feral mutagen discovery, since you can combine natural attacks with normal attacks at a -5 penalty (-2 with multiattack).


course wrote:


so, you can hold 4 weapons, but you can still only attack with 2 of them. if you want to get more attacks, take the feral mutagen discovery, since you can combine natural attacks with normal attacks at a -5 penalty (-2 with multiattack).

Ok so I forgot about the no extra attacks part. Thanks for reminding me.

As for the feral mutagen discovery. The vestigial arms each grant a claw attack even though the vestigial discovery says they normally don't attack on their own?


No, you still get 2 claws. But you can attack with natural weapons at the end of a full attack as secondary natural attacks (-5 to hit, half str mod to damage). The (usual) problem with claws is that you need those same hands to wield your weapon, and thus cannot also use the claws that round.

With Vestigial Arms, you have two hands to hold a weapon or weapons for all of your iterative attacks, and then have the claws on different hands and thus available for use.

It's no different in concept than using armor spikes, unarmed strike, or something else for your iteratives, and then claw/claw/bite from feral mutagen. It's just...weapons you can hold in your hands tend to be better than unarmed strike and the lot (can get a big ol' greatsword for 1.5x str mod to damage, or TWF with shortswords, and so forth).


I see. So I can't just get 4 claws/bite, I need to make my natural attacks a secondary claw/claw/bite.

See I'm making this character for a "Ding-Or-Die" lvl 1-20 campaign (every session the one fight will result in level-up or death). I liked the alchemist I played in an earlier campaign so much I wanted to really bring out its best. I am not convinced that bombs are the better option.

I have decided to use a vivisectionist since it gives me sneak attack instead of bombs. All around better for Mr. Hyde type alchemist. Any suggestions? Should I go for the TWF Falchion build or a standard TWF with secondary claw/claw/bite?
Or better yet, can I use TWF with unarmed attacks then claw/claw/bite w/o using vestigial arms?

I am just trying to get opinions because my some of my group can read RAW and come to two different conclusions.


All of those options are RAW legal. Note that in the case of TWF w/ 2 falchions, the 2nd one will still only be getting 0.5x str mod to damage, because that's just how the TWF rules work.

What is your strength going to be like? If it's high, you might want to actually 2H a Falchion and then add the claw/claw/bite, saves you some feats. Or possibly even just stick with claw/claw/bite only. Having them all as primaries is nice.

I suppose it also matters how often you expect to be able to sneak attack...

The arms can be useful for other things. I currently have a dex-based viv. alchemist. I took a tentacle instead of arm, but basically the same deal there. I use the tentacle to wield a darkwood heavy shield (no ACP = who cares you're not proficient?). Spending a feat on Extra Discovery for +2 AC, going up to as much as +7 when I enhance it, it totally worth it to me.


My STR is going to be my focused stat. Probably a 17 to start not counting the +racial which will be str (25 point build is the only way to survive ding-or-die imo). With mutagen a starting str mod of +6 for the fight.

I will likely us Dodge+Mobility for positioning with a buddy to flank ans get sneak damage that way. There is also Gang Up (you count as flanking if an enemy is flanked by other allies). Our group loves to have at least one pet in the fight (or 17 pets if one of the guys is playing summoner) so getting a flank should be easy. Also, alchemist has a greater invisibility extract.

Also I'm considering dropping the Amulet of Natural Armor I always buy for Amulet of Mighty Fists and doing an unarmed combo+claws/bite all buffed by amulet.
This is late game potential I know but lets assume at level 16 with 23 STR (no item buffs calculated yet), +5 Amulet, Grand Mutagen (STR focus) and GreaterTWF, muiltiattack, and power attack. (There will be other mods I know)
Unarmed Primary1/Off-hand1/Primary2/Off-hand2/Primary3/Off-hand3/claw/claw/bite
To hit: +21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11/+19/+19/+19
Damage: +23/+14/+23/+14/+23/+14/+14/+14/+14
(only putting down damage mods at this points I'm not a fan of increasing dice, too random)
I think this is the best option. Makes the most use of a +5 enhancement bonus.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

The arms can be useful for other things. I currently have a dex-based viv. alchemist. I took a tentacle instead of arm, but basically the same deal there. I use the tentacle to wield a darkwood heavy shield (no ACP = who cares you're not proficient?). Spending a feat on Extra Discovery for +2 AC, going up to as much as +7 when I enhance it, it totally worth it to me.

Can you break that down for me? I'm working on an alchemist right now as well, and I might be crazy but I don't see any discoveries that grant AC


You should be trying to obtain a CL 20 or as high a CL as possible potion of Greater Magic Fang to use w/ Alchemical Allocation to buff each of your natural weapons. You could also do this for your unarmed strike if you wished.

If you can't buy one, you can actually make it yourself. The requirement for a potion of GMF is CL 5 normally, or 7 in your case...the min. CL needed to cast the spell. Just use a higher DC to make a CL above your own actual CL. The rules allow for this, you just set the spellcraft (alchemy for you) DC to 5 + CL. So a CL 20 potion would be DC 25, pretty easy to make.


false_idol wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:

The arms can be useful for other things. I currently have a dex-based viv. alchemist. I took a tentacle instead of arm, but basically the same deal there. I use the tentacle to wield a darkwood heavy shield (no ACP = who cares you're not proficient?). Spending a feat on Extra Discovery for +2 AC, going up to as much as +7 when I enhance it, it totally worth it to me.

Can you break that down for me? I'm working on an alchemist right now as well, and I might be crazy but I don't see any discoveries that grant AC

The tentacle holds the shield. This allows me to still have my hands for claw attacks. The shield provides +2 AC, up to +7 if enhanced. AC I would not normally be able to enjoy if I wanted to fight with both hands.

That's...about it, really.

And Vestigial Arm would work just as well. I just was going for squick factor and wanted my character to be as grotesque looking as possible, so I went with tentacle. Gotta represent that Charisma 5, after all! :)


oh the feat for the discovery for the arm, got it


Yeah I know about Alchmeists allocation for a 20CL GMF but that'd use all of my 2nd level extracts (2 hands, 2 claws, 1 bite). Thing is I wanted to get other potions for the same thing.

Unless buffing 1 claw/hand buffs both.

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