| Mabven the OP healer |
Is this spelled out in RAW anywhere?
It is spelled out in the stealth skill description:
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
So, you are hidden, then you do a full attack. The first attack hits, and you are revealed. You could hide immediately using a move action at a -20 to your check, as per the sniping rules, but since you are full-attacking, you do not have a move action to expend to make the stealth check, and as the skill says "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking." Not using stealth, dexterity bonus is not denied. Since you have no action to use between attacks to maintain your concealment, you can not continue to attack the opponent with his dexterity bonus denied.
JohnF
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You can get more than one attack in on an opponent while he is flat footed. If you get a chance to attack on the surprise round while your opponent does not, and you also have better initiative on the first regular combat round, your opponent will be flat-footed for those first two attacks until he gets his regular turn in the first non-surprise round (unless he has Uncanny Dodge).
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you examine it too closely - he's probably aware of you after your first attack (and can even make an attack of opportunity if he has Combat Reflexes). But until his first regular turn comes up RAW say he is flat-footed. This applies to all attacks, not just the first one (if you are high enough level to get multiple attacks per round).
Howie23
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I think that some are expressing some confusion about the term flat-footed.
A creature is flat-footed until it acts for the first time in initiative.
A creature is denied his Dex bonus to AC if he is flat-footed or in some other conditions, including attacks from an invisible or hidden creature.
So, all attacks when flat-footed get sneak attack. Only the first attack when hidden via Stealth deny Dex to AC; afterward, the target is no long denied Dex.
Flat-footed and being denied Dex to AC are not the same thing.
Howie23
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Once your target acts in the first round of combat, he is no longer flat-footed. There may be special conditions that make him flat-footed again; the grease spell used to but it doesn't seem to anymore. Otherwise, he will not be flat-footed again for the rest of combat.
The condition you want to place him in is not flat-footed. You're misusing that term; lots of people do. Rather, you want to make it so that he cannot respond to your attack. This denies him the benefit of Dexterity to his AC. Being denied Dex is how you get sneak attack damage. Flat-footed is only of interest to you for sneak attack because it happens to deny your target Dexterity.
JohnF
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The condition you want to place him in is not flat-footed. You're misusing that term; lots of people do.
One reason for that is probably that most character sheets (including the one downloadable from the Paizo site and the ones produced by HeroLab) use the term "Flat-Footed Armor Class" to label the relevant box.
| wraithstrike |
Flat-footed and denied dex are not the same thing, and it is hard to make someone flat-footed.
The flat-footed condition usually last for at least a round. Being denied dex depends on the circumstances.
If you hide the enemy is only flat-footed during the surprised round, and before he gets to act. During the surprise round you only get one attack however.
If you are hiding in combat somehow, and he has already taken an action he is not flat-footed, but you do get sneak attack on the first attack because he is unaware of you. Once that first attack lands he is aware of you so no more sneak attacks until you can get a flank.
| BigNorseWolf |
But if I hide in combat, and then attack from hidden?
DM's call. There is no specific raw that allows you to deny your opponent the dex bonus with the hidden condition
Would only my first attack hit the opponent flat-footed?
IF it works at all yes, its only one attack. Even invisibility only gets you one attack. Even if you dual wield you attack right then left , not both at the same time.
Howie23
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Garden Tool wrote:But if I hide in combat, and then attack from hidden?DM's call. There is no specific raw that allows you to deny your opponent the dex bonus with the hidden condition
I found the same thing when I was reviewing the topic. I couldn't piece it together through the PRD, although the intent seems to be there from the first sentence of the Stealth skill and from carry over understandings from D&D 3.5.
Would only my first attack hit the opponent flat-footed?IF it works at all yes, its only one attack. Even invisibility only gets you one attack. Even if you dual wield you attack right then left , not both at the same time.
Beating the Denied Dex v. Flat Footed drum once more, it would work to deny him his Dex, but not because he was flat footed. :)
| wraithstrike |
I am sure it does work by RAW
Some people disagreed with me, but it I could not find a compelling argument otherwise.
Garden Tool
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It seems clear to me that being hidden or invisible with regards to an opponent causes that opponent to be denied his Dex modifier to AC when you attack him. Wraithstrike's link demonstrates that, as does the painfully clear RAI (and the slightly less clear, but still close-enough-for-government-work RAW).
For some reason, though, I have always assumed that a rogue who pops out of Stealth or invisibility in mid-combat gets to make all of his or her attacks against his denied-Dex opponent. My ninja player is not going to be pleased.
Oh, and I was misusing the term flat-footed. I do know the difference, but somehow I always catch myself just calling "denied Dex bonus to AC" by the name "flat-footed." Sorry for any confusion.