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Trap Sense. It gives rogues and barbarians a dodge bonus to their AC against traps. But, when a character triggers a trap, by the very nature of what a trap is, the character who triggers it is surprised. Therefore, that character is denied his or her Dexterity bonus to AC, therefore that character does not get any dodge bonuses to AC.
So how does Trap Sense even work? I mean, yes, barbarians have Uncanny Dodge by this point, but rogues don't. And what about if you trade Uncanny Dodge away in an archetype? Then you're left with a class feature that is literally broken, it cannot function as written.
How does a character without Uncanny Dodge (such as a 3rd level rogue) even get Trap Sense? You trigger a trap. You instinctively sense that a trap has been triggered, as the trap is triggered, and you should have a better time dodging out of the way, but because the trap surprised you, you are not able to dodge out of the way.
As written, the ability does not function as intended at all. Can I get some advice on this? What is the point of Trap Sense if it can't even work on its own?
While you do lose the dodge bonus while surprised, you do get it when you know the trap is there. And the bonus on Reflex saves still applies even if you are caught by surprise.
So the ability still functions, it just has reduced usefulness when surprised.
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I wuz gonna say "it works just like Spidey-sense!"
You don't lose your Dex bonus to AC whenever you're surprised, only during the surprise round of combat. Traps don't 'initiate combat' the way a normal encounter would. They go off, resolve, then it's business as usual. There's no initiative roll to see if you go before the trap.
So, there's really no reason that anyone would be denied their Dex bonus against a trap under normal circumstances.
If a trap were to go off during the surprise round of a combat, before a character had a chance to act, then the character would, technically, be flat-footed. This is a weird corner case, though, not the norm.
You'd certainly not be flatfooted if you had found the trap any just set it off accidentally (bad disable device roll?) anyway. ven if you weren't aware, I don't think the trap rules ever say they catch people flatfooted.
Just treat it like spidey-sense, as others have said... :)
If you dont know its there you are flat footed. However rovues and barbarians get uncanny dodge.
I dont know if traps make you flatfooted but you do lose your dex to ac if you cant percieve them, imo.
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haha. yeah, i'd say traps make you flat-footed. traps are still an encounter technically. and rogues and barbs get uncanny dodge, so they CANT be caught flatfooted by traps. red and blue lasers my friend..
Rogues do not get Uncanny Dodge until one level after they get Trap Sense. Additionally, there are plenty of archetypes that trade away Uncanny Dodge without getting rid of trap sense, such as Scout, Bandit, Sanctified Rogue, Trapsmith, Mounted Fury and Wild Rager.
Edit: I guess the bonus to Reflex saves still applying is nice, but that just makes an already lackluster ability seem even more useless in my opinion. Oh well. I'll just try and make sure I always trade it away.
It's still usable against traps you percieve, which might be quite a few depending on trap design (and upon how you interpret the trap rules, which are quite ambiguous)
Ignoring common sense, the specifics still trump the general rule.
Plus, traps can make attacks more than once.
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Ignoring common sense, the specifics still trump the general rule.
That doesn't apply in this situation, I don't think. It says you get a dodge bonus versus attacks made by traps. It doesn't specifically state "You retain this bonus even when you are flat-footed against traps".
Saying it's specific versus general would be like saying the Knife Master gets his Dodge bonus against attacks made by rogues when they catch him off-guard. The Knife Master's Blade Parry (IIRC) ability that gives him a dodge bonus versus light slashing weapons does not apply to all attacks made by slashing weapons (It's a dodge bonus. He loses it when he's flat-footed), so why would Trap Sense apply to all attacks made by traps?
Plus, traps can make attacks more than once.
I admit, I had not considered that possibility at all. I have never heard of such a trap. Could you give an example of a trap that attacks more than once?
Do you have traps roll for initiative?
No. I consider traps that the barbarian is unaware of to be invisible attackers.
Ignoring common sense, the specifics still trump the general rule.That doesn't apply in this situation, I don't think. It says you get a dodge bonus versus attacks made by traps. It doesn't specifically state "You retain this bonus even when you are flat-footed against traps".
Saying it's specific versus general would be like saying the Knife Master gets his Dodge bonus against attacks made by rogues when they catch him off-guard. The Knife Master's Blade Parry (IIRC) ability that gives him a dodge bonus versus light slashing weapons does not apply to all attacks made by slashing weapons (It's a dodge bonus. He loses it when he's flat-footed), so why would Trap Sense apply to all attacks made by traps?
Plus, traps can make attacks more than once.I admit, I had not considered that possibility at all. I have never heard of such a trap. Could you give an example of a trap that attacks more than once?
Here's one: Slashing Cage
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Here's one: Slashing Cage
** spoiler omitted **
Wow. Wow, that trap is just brutal. I love it. Thanks for the link.
Wow. Wow, that trap is just brutal. I love it. Thanks for the link.
Here's one: Slashing Cage
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah it is! Especially since a decidedly nasty person is right down the hall and now knows you're coming =)
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Where are people getting the idea that you are flat-footed against things you aren't aware of even outside of combat?
With the exception of a few specific cases, the only time you are flat-footed is during combat before you have acted. Likewise, the only time you are denied DEX to AC is when something specifically says you are.
Traps do not initiate combat. No initiative is rolled. No one is flat-footed.
I think steve, that people are applying logic rather than rules. if you're unaware of a trap attacking you, you'd lose your dex to AC, using LOGIC, not rules. I think that's why a lot of people are having a hard time with it.
I get that, but then you are left with the logical disconnect Trap Sense doesn't function. So LOGICALLY, it's not very logical.
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Sweet mother of god.
It just works.
It's just a class feature that makes you more likely to survive traps.
How it works is irrelevant.
Stop trying to nerf the rogue: Paizo has done a creditable job of that already... let rogues dodge traps, it's what they're supposed to do.