I'm building a back-up character for a weekly game I'm in. The campaign world is low magic. With this in mind I figured a good fit would be the more "common man" Martial Artist Archtype for the Monk. The DM is having us use the 2d6+6 stat rolling method. My Rolls: 18 16 16 12 11 11 NOT BAD!
The build I'm putting together is going to somewhat mimic a modern day MMA/Martial Artist who is skilled at breaking things and to take advantage of the first part of:
Exploit Weakness (Ex): At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object's hardness or the target's CR. If the check succeeds, the martial artist gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls until the end of his turn, and any attacks he makes until the end of his turn ignore the creature or object's DR or hardness. *SNIP*
I'm maybe thinking a Human multi-class Martial Artist/Barbarian but have yet to make up my mind on specifics.
Any suggestions?
What books are allowed for races? Monk is MAD, so anything that can boost 2 important stats in return for dumping charisma or intelligence is automatically a top choice.
Dwarf in core is ok, something that boosts strength (like the Oread) is better, though. Of course, Oread is not humanoid and thus can't be enlarged, so...tradeoffs.
You want (pre-race) Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 11.
Were you thinking of being more levels in Barbarian, or Monk? Dip one, progress in the other. Do not attempt an even split type of multiclass, those do VERY badly in pathfinder, where so much stuff is class level-based.
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Go Human & be a Shoanti - there is a trait called Bred for War that will give you +1 to your CMB. They are a 'barbaric' peoples so being a barbarian fits thematically.
Alternatively the Lore Warden Fighter Arcetype will give you scaling bonus to your CMB & CMD. The Lore Warden also has a similar ability to the Martial Artist 'exploit weakness' that grants a +2 competance bonus on attack & damage rolls against the target - if that competance bonus stacks with the unnamed bonus from Monk it would be nice.
What books are allowed for races? Monk is MAD, so anything that can boost 2 important stats in return for dumping charisma or intelligence is automatically a top choice.
Dwarf in core is ok, something that boosts strength (like the Oread) is better, though. Of course, Oread is not humanoid and thus can't be enlarged, so...tradeoffs.
You want (pre-race) Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 11.
Were you thinking of being more levels in Barbarian, or Monk? Dip one, progress in the other. Do not attempt an even split type of multiclass, those do VERY badly in pathfinder, where so much stuff is class level-based.
Looking at maybe a 2 level dip into breaker barbarian for the rage and a rage power/archtype class feature.
If you're only dipping Barbarian, consider Wild Rager. You can use the confusion rounds to greatly extend your rage duration for the day. Remember, you can ALWAYS choose to fail a save if you want. With your high wis and good base will, you'll basically be able to make the will save DC 95% of the time (ie, anytime you don't roll a 1), allowing a fair amount of control of when you go into confusion and when you come out of it. Since you can't use rage powers while confused from uncontrolled rage, you may only want to go one level. If you do go 2, you swap Uncanny Dodge for a VERY costly ability to chain an extra attack to your flurry. The penalties are severe on it, so use it primarily when the enemy won't be able to fight back that turn or when you're pretty sure your attacks can end the fight (and thus the foe can't retaliate).
Really, none of the early rage powers are that good for someone who'll never have many barb levels anyway, and the only really good barbarian archetype, Invulnerable Rager, is NOT worth it if only dipping.
EDIT: Best rage powers if you're dipping would probably either be Knockback or Quick Reflexes. Former lets you 1/round bull rush instead of melee attack (bull rush is usually a standard action). When full attacking, I'd use it towards the end of your flurry so the foe's pushed back (5 ft step further away if neeeded) to get in your attack but deprive the foe of full attacking you back. Latter is just +1 AoO per round, inferior to grabbing Combat Reflexes, but a decent poor man's solution if you don't get it.
Note: Knockdown sounds good, but is only once/rage for some stupid reason.
I should mention that the world is in the DM's own sandbox. Races are limited to "Core Rulebook" but classes and archtypes are allowed from any non-third party book. The world itself has a Gaelic feel to it. I'll most likely be going with a kilt clad human individual.
I'd do dwarf. They're the best core monk race, and can easily fit that sort of environment. If you do human, buff str to 20, though.
I'd do dwarf. They're the best core monk race, and can easily fit that sort of environment. If you do human, buff str to 20, though.
Hmmm...I generally hate the Dwarven hit to movement speed. And really like the bonus feat at first level that Humans get. Having 3 feats at first level can help set up many a combo if done right.
After realizing I only net a +1 damage vs. objects from the Breaker Archtype... I'm currently leaning toward Drunken Brute as I can maintain my rage with alcohol and pick up spirit totem for the free negative energy slam attack each round.
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You may find that the bonus feat for being human is not as great as it seems for a Monk with +0 BAB. A lot of good feats have a +1 BAB requirement. However, you can always grab Toughness or Improved Initiative as they are always good choices.
The Heart of Fields human alternate class feature will let you do a poor man's rage cycle 1/day which would tide you over until you get to Martial Artist 5 and gain fatigue immunity... But if you;re only dipping for 2 levels Barbarian anyhow you shouldn't be selecting a 1/Rage power anyhow - like StreamoftheSky suggested Knockback is probably your best option. If you were going to eventualy get a 2nd rage power knockdown would be nice if you already had fatigue immunity as you could just cycle your rage.
You may find that the bonus feat for being human is not as great as it seems for a Monk with +0 BAB. A lot of good feats have a +1 BAB requirement. However, you can always grab Toughness or Improved Initiative as they are always good choices.
The Heart of Fields human alternate class feature will let you do a poor man's rage cycle 1/day which would tide you over until you get to Martial Artist 5 and gain fatigue immunity... But if you;re only dipping for 2 levels Barbarian anyhow you shouldn't be selecting a 1/Rage power anyhow - like StreamoftheSky suggested Knockback is probably your best option. If you were going to eventualy get a 2nd rage power knockdown would be nice if you already had fatigue immunity as you could just cycle your rage.
Well the bonus feat is great for getting the majority of the way through the Spring Attack feat tree. Or I can pick up Power Attack and Furious Focus.
The Druken Brute's "Raging Drunk" allows me to continue to maintain my rage for each drink I take, and thus not spend rounds of rage.
The Lesser Spirit Totem gives me free slam attacks each round for the duration of my rage.
1. Power Attack requires BAB +1. Of course, I'd suggest starting as a Barb if starting at level 1 anyway (then a bunch in monk, then back to barb for a level, then back to monk). Higher HD to max, more starting wealth, and you can pick up stuff like power attack.
2. Raging Drunk is a trap. The actions it takes to inebriate yourself make those "free rage rounds" very limited in use.
3. Any rage power for a natural attack is a waste of a rage power. Why? When you're not full attacking you only get one attack, you're better off with your unarmed strike as your single hit. When you are full attacking, you'll be flurrying. When you flurry, you cannot add natural weapon attacks to the flurry like you could a regular full attack (unfortunately). So the natural weapon(s) gained from rage powers will never be useful, in any situation.
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Or I can pick up Power Attack and Furious Focus.
Only if you start as a Barbarian. It's not a bad idea actually if you decide to be a Dwarf - you get your 30' base speed back!
The earliest a Monk can qualify for Power Attack is 3rd level (technically you 'qualify' at 2nd level but don't have a feat slot to take it until 3rd).
Barbarian should be the first level anyhow. The first level hit die is usually maximized for PCs so putting that d12 up front instead of a d8 is +2 hp on average and lets you have +1 BAB to qualify for feats from the start.
This should work. I'll be bringing the character at a higher level because its a replacement so I'll hopefully be third level or higher. The current character is 2nd level so we'll see how long he lasts.
I'm digging the Dragon Style since it'll get me easy access to Elemental Fist as a Monk of the Four Winds. So that'd be on the list for some point.
I definitely want Power Attack and Furious Focus... then Vital Strike... and then Furious Finish. That gives me a massive finishing move.
Since I'm going with the Lesser Spirit Totem... I want to keep my CHA without penalty.
I see no reason why you'd want to dump feats on Vital Strike when you've got Flurry.
Because I want punches that can shatter stone, trees, knock someones head off.
Hmm... on a side note... I could pick up a fighting style that changes my attacks to piercing and pick up piercing critical. Nothing like shoving your hand into an enemies chest, grabbing something, and squeezing.
I see no reason why you'd want to dump feats on Vital Strike when you've got Flurry.
Because you don't always get to make a full attack?
I see no reason why you'd want to dump feats on Vital Strike when you've got Flurry.Because you don't always get to make a full attack?
That too! :)
Vital Strike does probably benefit the Monk more than a lot of other classes; their speed makes a skirmisher build quite tempting, and the monk will ultimately get the highest weapon damage dice of any class.
He's feat starved as it is, though. You need too many feats to make Vital Strike "worth it".I see no reason why you'd want to dump feats on Vital Strike when you've got Flurry.Because you don't always get to make a full attack?
Well... with the switch to every class getting feats at every odd level in Pathfinder, the Human bonus feat, and the Monks 6 bonus feats, I'm hardly "feat starved". Over all I'm only getting 4 feats less than a fighter.
Alrighty then... looking at my stats I've laid them out like this for the moment.
I may decide to go with only 1 level of barbarian. If that is the case I'll put my racial +2 into DEX. If I go with two levels and pick up Lesser Spirit Totem I might decide I'll want to drop it into CHA.
My DM is not allowing alternate racial features or Traits. So being able to fuel my rage with alcohol or potions with the Drunken Brute's "Raging Drunk" ability is very tempting.
STR- 18
DEX- 12
CON- 16
INT- 11
WIS- 16
CHA- 11
Vital Strike does probably benefit the Monk more than a lot of other classes; their speed makes a skirmisher build quite tempting, and the monk will ultimately get the highest weapon damage dice of any class.
Yes, but the problem there is that it takes a lot of feats, the monk is 3/4 BAB, and his 'weapon' only gets half the enhancement of other weapons and has a terrible threat range. 6d10 looks like a lot, but at that level a fighter is dishing 60+ damage per hit without even trying.
Vital Strike does probably benefit the Monk more than a lot of other classes; their speed makes a skirmisher build quite tempting, and the monk will ultimately get the highest weapon damage dice of any class.Yes, but the problem there is that it takes a lot of feats, the monk is 3/4 BAB, and his 'weapon' only gets half the enhancement of other weapons and has a terrible threat range. 6d10 looks like a lot, but at that level a fighter is dishing 60+ damage per hit without even trying.
Monk is only 4 feats less than the fighter. Granted his bonus feats do limit him a little, but they are generally good. Since I'm using the Martial Artist Archtype for this build I'm looking to "one-trick-pony" him a little and have him able to throw one thunderous punch. His ability to take a swift action to gain a +2 to hit and make a modified wisdom check and then ignore the enemies DR sets him up pretty good to really take advantage of the Vital Strike tree. His ability to take fighter feats is nice as well.
So... start with a level of Drunken Brute Barbarian for Rage and Raging Drunk, and the d12 hit dice. His feats will be Power Attack and Furious Focus. From second level on I'll focus on Martial Artist Monk. By 5th level (Barbarian 1/Monk 4) he'll have Exploit Weakness and the ability to ignore DR. As soon as he can he'll pick up Vital Strike. Between 1st-11th level I'll have 11 feats to play with. Here is what I've come up with so far.
- 1st-Power Attack, Furious Focus
- 2nd-Improved Grapple
- 3rd- Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Dodge
- 5th- Weapon Specialization (Unarmed)
- 7th- Mobility, Dragon Style
- 9th- Vital Strike
- 11th- Spring Attack, Dragon Ferocity
Monk is only 4 feats less than the fighter. Granted his bonus feats do limit him a little, but they are generally good. Since I'm using the Martial Artist Archtype for this build I'm looking to "one-trick-pony" him a little and have him able to throw one thunderous punch. His ability to take a swift action to gain a +2 to hit and make a modified wisdom check and then ignore the enemies DR sets him up pretty good to really take advantage of the Vital Strike tree. His ability to take fighter feats is nice as well.Vital Strike does probably benefit the Monk more than a lot of other classes; their speed makes a skirmisher build quite tempting, and the monk will ultimately get the highest weapon damage dice of any class.Yes, but the problem there is that it takes a lot of feats, the monk is 3/4 BAB, and his 'weapon' only gets half the enhancement of other weapons and has a terrible threat range. 6d10 looks like a lot, but at that level a fighter is dishing 60+ damage per hit without even trying.
The 3/4 BAB is going to be a major problem for him, then. That one attack is not going to be part of FoB, so it's down on the hitting chances by the time you get Vital Strike - especially if you use Power Attack.
Oh, and Furious Focus is all but useless for this: it only applies to two-handed weapons.
Hmm, since you want to go the one thunderous punch route (and possibly foregoing flurry), could I possibly recommend dual archetyping into sensei and martial artist and concentrating on wisdom? (You can put the 16 into str and still do respectable damage).
That way, your exploit weakness is that much more effective, your stunning fist is (combined with the martial artist's bonus to stunning fist DC) super effective, and what damage you're missing out with low strength, you're making up for with advice (somewhat, and you're spreading it around to the party as well).
Just a thought.
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Another possibility to consider is mixing the Master of Many Styles with the Martial Artist. Dragon Style in particular will give a nice boost to damage, not to mention unlocking an enhanced Version of Elemental Fist. For a one-punch build, Elemental Fist, Stunning Fist, and similar powers are going to be very useful. Not to mention that Style Feats in general are pretty darn useful, like Crane Style boosting up your defense and ultimately giving an AoO on the first person to attack you in melee.
Also, it's always worth asking the DM if the Guided weapon enhancement is available. If you can get it, it's even better for fixing the Monk's MAD problem than going Sensei.
One thing to remember if you stack monk archetypes though is that the Martial Artist doesn't have a ki pool. That can make for problems, since it can render some archetypes features (like the Sensei's Mystic Wisdom) unusable.
MoMS and MA don't stack.
Yeah, I missed Perfect Self being tied into the Martial Artist's Extreme Endurance ability. Oh well.
Oh, and Furious Focus is all but useless for this: it only applies to two-handed weapons.
The Furious Focus will work great with a staff or any of a number of one-handed/two-handed monk weapons. I'll need to stay alive until I get to the point of throwing some really thunderous punches and I'm fine charging in and laying the smack-down with a two-handed weapon attack to take advantage of STR 1/2 and 3points from power attack.
The big one will be getting Furious Finish. Maybe I'll take that instead of the second Dragon Style feat at 11th. Its a toss up. Effectively STR 1/2 on every attack in a flurry... or a maxed vital strike.
I'm still concerned that your thunderous punches will miss more than you'd like. 3/4 BAB and sub-par enhancement will have that effect.
I'm still concerned that your thunderous punches will miss more than you'd like. 3/4 BAB and sub-par enhancement will have that effect.
If I was straight Monk I could see where this might be a issue. However considering the fact that I'll have the Rage ability, my to-hit should be a fair bit higher. Dragon Style will insure I can charge even over difficult terrain for the additional +2 and give me STR 1/2 on the punch after the charge. Even then...
The thunderous punching will not start happening until I get the ability:
Exploit Weakness (Ex): At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object's hardness or the target's CR. If the check succeeds, the martial artist gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls until the end of his turn, and any attacks he makes until the end of his turn ignore the creature or object's DR or hardness.
Because of my build I won't get this until level 5. Against the majority of enemies who are the proper CR for my level I should be able to make the check over 50% of the time... granting me a +2 to hit and the ability to ignore that enemies DR. *EDIT: Due to the fact that this ability is a swift action and lasts until the end of my turn it'll work with my flurry as well.
Once I pick up Vital Strike, and around 11th pick up Furious Finish, my "Truly Thunderous Punch" will have reached potency. :)
The perfected "God-like Thunderous Punch" will not occur until I've picked up Improved Vital Strike... until then I'm looking at something like this around 11th level:
Truly Thunderous Punch:To-hit:+18(+20raging) [+9 BAB, +5 STR(+7raging), +2(Charge), +2(Exploit Weakness)] Damage: 3d10 +12 [+10(STR 20, Rage +4,Dragon Style STR 1/2) ,+2 (Weapon Spec)] *on a regular vital strike
or on a Furious Finish 42 damage.
These numbers will be before any outside buffs.
Whelp... its 45 min. after midnight here. I've got some ideas now. Hopefully I will not need this character tomorrow as I don't really want my current PC to die off after only a couple of game sessions.
Any continuing comments, suggestions, or advice are as always... welcome!
It's respectable, it looks cool, but a fighter with a greatsword will hit for 60+ at that point with better odds to hit. What I'm saying is, it's cool but not the ultimate.
It's respectable, it looks cool, but a fighter with a greatsword will hit for 60+ at that point with better odds to hit. What I'm saying is, it's cool but not the ultimate.
Never said it was the ultimate. But for a guy hitting you with his fist its pretty dang good. :)
Mind you, that is prior to any items or enhancements. I only need to bump that up by about 8 points and I'm threatening massive damage which forces those pesky Fort. saves vs. death from shock.