Yeah. We sometimes forget the 1st Rule: Or maybe its the 0th Rule: "We are here to have fun, and to PLAY." In my life coaching business, PLAY is an acronym for Pretending Laws About Yourself... Playing is never meant to hedge us in, except to the point that we want to be hedged in. And Thinking outside the box, or being unafraid to pretend different laws is a huge part of the gaming experience.
There is a cultural history of gaming that I do feel like I'm missing. I don't know that way it's been in gaming, and I often feel like I asked for something completely outlandish when I ask for something which goes against that "that's never been possible" cultural knowledge base. So when I want to do something that isn't expressly forbidden, often lots of time is spent looking for the book reference as to why to back up their "that's the way it's always been." Maybe I should be satisfied with "that's how it's been since back in the day" but I learn best when I know where in the book it says it, especially when it's something cool that I really wanted to do.
Agreed with Arazni; you already are thinking very much like a gamer. To be more accurate, you're thinking like a creative gamer. If you ever end up gaming with different groups, you'll discover that "thinking like a gamer" makes about as much sense as "thinking like a girl" -- maybe there are certain similarities, but overall there's no one way to think like a whole group of people.
Anyway, just keep asking questions and soon enough you'll be telling newcomers "Yep, that's just the way it's always been." For better or for worse. :)
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I just want to state that in many ways I do like the rules. They bring consistency. If last gaming session X was allowed and this session I try to do X and it is not allowed, with no explanation why (like you don't have the feat) I will call foul. Granted I'm not in a group where exceptions like "he got lucky" or "he got a huge adrenaline rush" are used as explanations.
I agree that my style, at least at this point in my gaming evolution, doesn't completely mesh with my current group. I am not, however, prepared to jump ship yet. I'm looking for ways to learn the ways of my group without being so frustrated, because I appreciate the rules and think I will eventually be able to be creative within those rules (like writing computer code which is both beautiful, almost poetic, yet within strict rules) Time? the answer to everything. Or there is no answer and I just have a deal with it.
Sometimes the biggest part of moving past the frustration is understanding what's going on. Just because you have different styles doesn't mean that you can't game together happily. It just requires a little patience on both sides. I would suggest maybe asking the GM or even some of the players if it would be okay to email questions and such between games. Most of the time when people get frustrated with questions during game sessions it's because of the time it takes away from the playing. But mostly, yes, time is about the only thing that wil fix it. :)
My advice. Relax into your character. The rules are there to support your character, you don't have to worry about them (too much), just relax into your character and if a situation arises where you need to get involved with the rules, you'll have them when you need them.
A lot of times, new gamers think they have to DO something. That's not really the case. Just relax into the character and let the dice and the DM do what needs to be done.
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I love playing the game and have a blast, but the fact that I don't think and apply things the way they do is ... becoming an issue.
Sounds like a mismatch in play styles to me. And you're right. It can for some people be an issue.
When I was a college student for the second time, with 19 years of RP to call upon, we started a little group with another experienced player running the game and two total newbs, an NPC and myself as the party members. I had played D&D (1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5) and Villians & Vigilantes, and had kind of absorbed some of the rules and the prevailing mindset.
I admit I got frustrated with the new players. But soon they knew the rules better than I did, and soon they were coming up with far more interesting solutions than I was. It was a mismatch in play styles, but I changed. I opened my mind to the experience of playing with people who may not have played the same way "everyone" played, and I'm surprised that they didn't call me on being a total jerk. (Sorry, Talynonyx. Sorry, Mr. Splashy. I hope I made up for it.)
We eventually met in the middle. But *I* was the one with the issue, not them.
So you just keep having a blast, roleplay your character the way you want, and keep your established gamers on their toes. :) It's not a problem with how you think or play. It really sounds like it's a problem with the unrealistic expectations of those around you.
I just want to state that in many ways I do like the rules. They bring consistency. If last gaming session X was allowed and this session I try to do X and it is not allowed, with no explanation why (like you don't have the feat) I will call foul. Granted I'm not in a group where exceptions like "he got lucky" or "he got a huge adrenaline rush" are used as explanations.
I agree that my style, at least at this point in my gaming evolution, doesn't completely mesh with my current group. I am not, however, prepared to jump ship yet. I'm looking for ways to learn the ways of my group without being so frustrated, because I appreciate the rules and think I will eventually be able to be creative within those rules (like writing computer code which is both beautiful, almost poetic, yet within strict rules) Time? the answer to everything. Or there is no answer and I just have a deal with it.
That's great that you're willing to try to adapt to your group -- one thing a lot of us are saying is just that don't confuse your group's ways for "the way of gamers" or gamer culture in general. If anything, each gaming group has its own cultures and traditions -- but be aware you could end up playing with a different group at some point and you've assumed that everyone plays like they do, and you could have everyone wondering why you're not creative enough and why you're so obsessed with the letter of the rules that you've entirely missed the spirit/intent.
In short: sure, learn how to adapt to your group.
But DON'T for the love of god, learn to ignore your first instincts because you're afraid of doing it wrong according to a small group of people who are not necessarily representative of gamer subculture as a whole. Everything you've said about your playstyle are in my opinion traits to encourage, not discourage.
I'd really suggest bringing this up to your group -- including some of of the POVs brought up in this thread. Their being aware of your frustration is a good thing because it helps everyone think about how to make sure everyone's having fun. You seem admirably amenable to trying different things, but you wouldn't have posted to this thread if you hadn't been frustrated -- and if I were your GM, I would want to know why you were frustrated and why, and see how I could work with you to make things better for both of us. After all, if my players aren't having fun, then as GM I'm probably not going to have much fun either.
I just want to state that in many ways I do like the rules. They bring consistency. If last gaming session X was allowed and this session I try to do X and it is not allowed, with no explanation why (like you don't have the feat) I will call foul. Granted I'm not in a group where exceptions like "he got lucky" or "he got a huge adrenaline rush" are used as explanations.
I agree that my style, at least at this point in my gaming evolution, doesn't completely mesh with my current group. I am not, however, prepared to jump ship yet. I'm looking for ways to learn the ways of my group without being so frustrated, because I appreciate the rules and think I will eventually be able to be creative within those rules (like writing computer code which is both beautiful, almost poetic, yet within strict rules) Time? the answer to everything. Or there is no answer and I just have a deal with it.
Continue to grow, Valkyrie. That said, I would argue a bit more, as I'm just that way. I've also put my fist through a computer or two in my day, so we may be just completely different people.
Freehold DM, I do argue, too passionately sometimes, but if I don't have the rules to back me up, I lose. My arguing is one of the things which prompted the post which began this thread. It is comforting to know that I am not as "non-gamer" as I thought I was; I'm just a different gamer.
And to all those who suggested I talk with the GM and group (DeathQuaker being the most recent) I have and will continue to do so. Thanks to this thread I have a more clear understanding as to 'where the rub' is so to speak. Hopefully it will help.
True gamers should master the rules as best they can. That way nothing can get in your way including a DM unless he's using house rules. One thing I have learned over the years is tabletop RPG games are surely not for everybody, but if you're willing to learn then master the art of the RPG. Stimulating the imagination helps too by reading fantasy novels, movies, music, etc...See the picture in your mind, make it real, let the game guide you through with the rules and watch the magic unfold.
Anyone have any suggestions on how to "think like a gamer"?
I've recently introduced 2 people to roleplaying that have never roleplayed (or played Pathfinder) before in their lives, and they love it now.
It's the GMs job to teach the players, not only guiding them with the rules and character builds, but with the story line as well. No one should feel lost.
To strangers, I basically tell them "Have you watched the Lord of the Rings movies. Well now you know everything you need to know". It's easy to learn the basics, and it takes time to learn the details.
You might want to read the core rulebook or even the Beginner's Box. Anything outside that, it's up to the GM and players to explain.
You also might want to play a simple class like a fighter, rogue, or sorceror, instead of a Wizard or Cleric.
I'm not sure this helps, but maybe you should tell your GM to start guiding you more. Maybe this is a campaign with lots of stuff that only the other players know, and for some reason they don't feel like explaining.
I don't think that you're missing a cultural history of gaming, just your group's cultural history of gaming which is totally different than what you would find with another group. Your style and theirs aren't totally meshing.
The above bears repeating.
This is it.
Well, let me first agree that reading the core rulebook front to back is really important if you haven't done it already.
Having said that, if you're playing with a group of people who have been playing for a long time, and have come up through different editions, it's possible that they're using outdated rules because they don't realize that things have been changed.
For example, as a new player, I played in a game with a small group that involved a rogue player who could sneak attack every round in battle by using sleight of hand to conceal a dagger and 'surprise' the opponent with it. I got interested enough to look it up in the rules and check the boards for builds based off this idea. As far as I can tell, you can't do that in Pathfinder. The DM allowed it because that's how things worked in 3.5, and nobody noticed the change.
For me personally, anytime I hear "that's how things have always worked," I feel challenged to look it up in my off time to see it for myself. There's an implied bit of condescension in that line that urges me to look it up just in case. From what you've written so far, I'd recommend the same. If you keep coming up against mechanics difficulties, rechecking the mechanics will at least make sure that you don't make similar mistakes in the future.
Jason S- I agree that the LOTR movies are a great primer for the D&D concept, but the way you phrased your post makes me curious. How would you make possible an elf 'surfing' a shield down a long set of stone stairs, while simultaneously firing off a rapid series of arrows?
I always thought you were supposed to just imagine yourself in the situation, and say what you would like to do, and the DM would tell you what dice to roll to resolve the outcome.
I still try to make it work like that for new players. I have a 12 year old girl and her mom that join my games sometimes and she will say things like "guys, we haven't eaten all day, this cave looks like a good place for a picnic.". She even reminds people to pee before going into the dungeon for some reason. I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic, it just popped into my head.
Some people act out the battles with props etc. Roleplaying games can be taken to the extreme if the proper resources and available. I know some people who have had all weekend sleepovers with everyone staying in their character and acting out bits of the game like theater and emulating the battles with props all weekend long. These were 13-15 hour gaming sessions. Everyone was literally exhausted by weekend's end, but it's epic fun.
Jason S- I agree that the LOTR movies are a great primer for the D&D concept, but the way you phrased your post makes me curious. How would you make possible an elf 'surfing' a shield down a long set of stone stairs, while simultaneously firing off a rapid series of arrows?
Allow me. Acrobatics to ignore rough terrain and the feat Shot on the Run. Just one arrow but pretty close. Not sure if the Acrobatics roll is in the rules, but most groups I knowwould allow it out of sheer coolness of the idea.
I always thought you were supposed to just imagine yourself in the situation, and say what you would like to do, and the DM would tell you what dice to roll to resolve the outcome.
Pretty much. As you get the hang of the game you can start thinking up characters that are more different from yourself, imagining what 'they' would do. When you get good enough it goes back tho what 'I' would do, except the 'I' is the character. It's pretty similar to what a good actor does when performing.