This is my first post, as I have just started playing Pathfinder (though I am a 3.5 vet). So first of all, hi, Pathfinder community!
I have some questions for you all regarding a direction I would like to go with a character build. However, in order for you all to be armed with the necessary information to make informed decisions, I need to share some of my GM's house rules. I'll try to be brief and to the point, since people droning on about their personal characters and homebrew settings can be a little... uninteresting... for those not involved.
My GM went to a lot of trouble designing all sorts of non-standard races for the setting. This includes things as "vanilla" as goblinoids like goblins and bugbears, then moves to more exotic still like kalashatar, dhamphir, and tengu. There's an extensive selection, and while he was perfectly fine with us taking the standard Pathfinder races, he enjoyed the idea of us being a monster squad as well. Many of the more exotic races appealed to us, and so that's what we did. He also wanted to make 2 large races playable without ECLs - Minotaur and Ogre - and he tinkered with them, giving them toned down stats and abilities and taking away the feats they would normally get at 1st and 3rd level. He quite wanted someone to play one of the large races, so I took the hook, and am playing a Minotaur. (I'm sure it will raise quite a few eyebrows that a large race is being allowed at all, but whether or not it is a "good" decision on his part isn't entirely the thrust of my upcoming questions... just don't want this thread to turn into a hotbed of, "Seriously? A playable large PC from 1st level?!?!")
OK, so now the most unusual thing adjustment is out of the way, and the foundation of my character is laid... a large character who is particularly feat-starved. Another house rule he has is essentially death spiral... when you are at 75% hit points, you take a -1 to everything (to hit, saves, AC, skill checks, etc.). At 50%, you take a -2 to everything. At 75%, you take a -4. The only two classes that have ways around this are monk and barbarian. As monks level, they ignore increasing amounts of the wound penalties (presumably as a way to further entice people to want to play a monk). Barbarians ignore them totally while they rage.
In terms of other party members, we have a spellless ranger, an alchemist, and an inquistor, so we have a marked lack of magical artillery and in-combat healing.
I think those are the only house rules that bear particular relevance to my questions and the mechanics of my build. We have had a number of sessions so far, which have been fun, and we became 3rd level. 4th level is around the corner. Since my character is large and reasonably intelligent (13 int) and reasonably nimble (12 dex), I wanted to take advantage of that combination and make a proficient attack of opportunity attacker, and trip monkey. As such, I have taken 1 level of fighter (and chose Combat Reflexes as my bonus feat). I have chosen 2 levels of barbarian, and I chose the extra AoO while raging as my barb power. Beyond the stat increase, the rage is nice to ignore the inevitable wound penalties as the fight continues.
Looking ahead to the future, the way I envision my character can go one of two ways. The first and most simple is to mostly just pile on continued barbarian levels. The second option, and the one that is probably more appealing to both me and the GM, is to start taking Living Monolith levels at 6th level. (I should note it will be possible at this level because the GM is waiving the Endurance feat requirement, albeit at the cost of the "Summon Sphinx" ability at 7th level of the class). The reason it is appealing is more from roleplaying and background reasons than mechanical ones, as just concentrating on barbarian will probably yield a more effective character in both the short and long term (the GM envisions this campaign as going to 20th).
OK, now that that rather extensive but necessary background has been laid, I'll ask my questions:
1. Is Living Monolith indeed viable as a class? I haven't read much about it being actually played, and my take on it is it's certainly not overpowered, having only d8 HP a level and 2 skill points, and many of its abilities are pretty niche as opposed to constantly useful... BUT it gets enough cool, useful abilities that it will at least pull its weight all the way through. Agree, or am I missing some vital points?
2. What should I take as my 4th and 5th levels? I was thinking of 2 further levels of fighter, 2-handed weapon variant. That would make me 3rd level fighter, which would give me access to the ability that does double damage rather than 1.5 damage for single attacks, which is useful both for moving and attacking and my AoOs. I use a nodachi, and currently have a 19 natural strength... at 4th level that will go to 20. With the rage bonus, and the enlarge person/righteous might bonus, he will certainly be strong enough to make good use out of the extra damage.
Does 2 levels of fighter sound good, or should I perhaps go with further levels of barb, which will net me more time in rage, more HP, more skills, and a further rage power? Or something else still?
3. The feats I was thinking of for the nearish future are: 5th level Iron Will (because it's necessary for the class, and a pretty good feat anyway), and the Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Greater Trip combo. That combo comes faster with the fighter levels, of course. Should I instead focus on other feats, in your collective experience?
4. Am I missing anything glaring, or misunderstanding anything?
Thanks very much for looking this over... I realize it's quite a lot of background and reading. While I have a pretty good grasp of 3.5, a lot of my knowledge is rusty, and Pathfinder certainly changes a few of the mechanics in ways I may not totally get yet. Appreciate the help, all!
In Pathfinder, sticking to a core class is more powerful than going Prestige.
1) Blackbloodtroll is right about the mechanics of it. A pure class will outshine a PrC as far as mechanics go, but if this is for flavor then I say more power to ya. I'm currently playing a character with a full 10 levels in a PrC and I love him.
2)I would probably go fighter, personally. For simplicity's sake. Your build probably won't be optimized in any sence, but then again if your party doesn't tend to min-max then it shouldn't be that much of an issue. This Prc gives you plenty of good defensive abilities, so I'd focus on being the damage sponge in the party. Get up front, look dangerous with your big sword and keep the baddies away from your damage dealers.
3) If you do take fighter as your other levels you will have plenty of feats to start with. If you want to build an AoO then maybe look at things like bodyguard or Combat Patrol etc.
4) I'm not an optimizer. I say build him to your liking and if your DM is good then you'll find plenty of opportunities to shine. :)
blackbloodtroll wrote: In Pathfinder, sticking to a core class is more powerful than going Prestige. I'll disagree here.. I think that a one level dip into living monolith for the 3/day swift action enlarges can be worthwhile.
I don't think that I would pay 4 more levels in it for that to improve to righteous might tho.
I would suggest a few things to go with it. A level or 3 of rogue (thug), the enforcer feat, strong impression(talent)/intimidating prowess(feat), and max ranks in intimidate.
I'd also ask your DM if you could swap generic fighter for fighter (lorewarden) as that will help you more with your feat management and getting tripping working for you.
-James
I'm thinking that a minotaur, going mostly AOO-based Fighter with a reach weapon, and at least a one level dip into living monolith for the swift enlarge all adds up to a Battlefield Control GOD.
Here's what I would build (from the ground up)
Trait Blade of Mercy
Barb1 Enforcer
Rog1 (thug)
Rog2 <intimidating prowess> Iron Will
Ftr1 (lorewarden) power attack
Ftr2 <Combat Expertise> <Combat Reflexes> Endurance
LM1
Ftr3 Improved Trip
Ftr4 <Greater Trip>
Ftr5 Extra Rage
Have fun,
James
Thanks very much for the advice, all. You've all certainly shown me several feats and directions I was unaware of, and I'll think about good or possible ways to incorporate them. I actually hadn't seen Combat Patrol, which is pretty awesome, and the Intimidation line of feats and rogue abilities are pretty impressive as well.
I think perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been when I was describing to Minotaur race as in in the game, and thus one of the problems with a build. As a trade-off for allowing a large race from the outset, I do not get a feat at 1st or 3rd level as other characters do. This isn't a complaint or anything from me, it's just it makes feats very, very precious and my build a little trickier. ESPECIALLY at low levels, where so far at 3rd level the only feat I have is the one I obtained from a level in fighter.
So for example, James, while that is a very impressive build, it wouldn't work for me for a couple of reasons. Perhaps the biggest reason is I already am 3rd level, my traits are already chosen, my 3 levels are already picked, and I couldn't switch over to the Lorewarden if I wanted to, since my GM (generously) gave me large MW platemail at the end of last adventure... I have already worn and used it, and the only way I can wear it is with the fighter heavy armor feat, which lorewarden doesn't get. Also, your build has me taking feats at 1st and 3rd level, which is out. None of this is to say I don't appreciate it, though... as I said, the basic premise shows me many avenues I can approach in the future.
I'll also say that one of the reasons LM works from a RP perspective (and there are actually a few) is the immortality ability at the end, which has no particular mechanical benefit but dovetails well with plot points and character history both. That said, looking over some comments, perhaps I won't go all the way in LM. We'll see.
Zarnof wrote:
So for example, James, while that is a very impressive build, it wouldn't work for me for a couple of reasons. Perhaps the biggest reason is I already am 3rd level, my traits are already chosen,
Why don't you fully post your PC? You are a barb2/Ftr1 with combat reflexes a 13INT and 12DEX. You can pick up Iron will (and skills) to pick up LM. I'm also guessing that your DM is allowing you, as a monstrous humanoid, to enlarge via the LM ability... is he allowing you to do so otherwise? (Or has he made you humanoid?) Do you have all the abilities/etc of a minotaur?
I would suggest without seeing the rest of your character that you pick up Power attack as I'm guessing that you are strong and using a two-handed weapon.
If you have the minotaur ability to never be flat-footed, perhaps you can talk to your DM about having an archetype for your Barb levels. Some are quite flavorful and could fit you.
-James
james maissen wrote: Zarnof wrote:
Why don't you fully post your PC? You are a barb2/Ftr1 with combat reflexes a 13INT and 12DEX. You can pick up Iron will (and skills) to pick up LM. I'm also guessing that your DM is allowing you, as a monstrous humanoid, to enlarge via the LM ability... is he allowing you to do so otherwise? (Or has he made you humanoid?) Do you have all the abilities/etc of a minotaur?
OK, good idea... thanks for the suggestion.
First of all, the race Minotaur he created doesn't have a lot of the standard things a true Minotaur gets. They do count as a humanoid race, not a monstrous one. They are large, have +4 str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha. They have +4 Intimidate and Survival, Darkvision 60, +3 nat armor, Prejudice (which gives them a further -2 on many social roles, and often makes items cost more), and loses feats at 1st and 3rd level. That's it, nothing more.
As for my current build:
Traits: +2 init (Exile), +1 Will save
1st Fighter/2 Barbarian (Invuln Rager variant, took the variant before the LM was suggested for me, back when I was planning to mostly just go straight barb)
Str: 19
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Feat (Fighter 1): Combat Reflexes
Rage Power (Barb 2): Quick Reflexes (+1 AoO while raging)
Currently fights with a Large +1 Keen Nodachi (+7, 2d8+7, 15-20x2, S or P)
Wearing Large MWK Full plate
Zarnof wrote:
First of all, the race Minotaur he created doesn't have a lot of the standard things a true Minotaur gets. They do count as a humanoid race, not a monstrous one. They are large, have +4 str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha. They have +4 Intimidate and Survival, Darkvision 60, +3 nat armor, Prejudice (which gives them a further -2 on many social roles, and often makes items cost more), and loses feats at 1st and 3rd level. That's it, nothing more.
As for my current build:
Traits: +2 init (Exile), +1 Will save
1st Fighter/2 Barbarian (Invuln Rager variant, took the variant before the LM was suggested for me, back when I was planning to mostly just go straight barb)
Str: 19
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Feat (Fighter 1): Combat Reflexes
Rage Power (Barb 2): Quick Reflexes (+1 AoO while raging)
Currently fights with a Large +1 Keen Nodachi (+7, 2d8+7, 15-20x2, S or P)
Wearing Large MWK Full plate
What do you want the character to do? Btw what alignment is he?
I think that you will likely want to put a bonus feat for power attack in there as you will want it before 7th level.
The question after that is what else do you want to do?
Do you have access to prior 3rd edition material in any way?
The spell-less ranger and the inquisitor... are they both melee, or do you have an archer or two there? Does either the ranger or alchemist handle traps for the party?
-James
I would say what I most want him to do is battlefield control, along with respectable damage. The way I mostly envision battlefield control is currently by utilizing his long reach (as he is frequently Huge sized, thanks to the Alchemist, and more so when he gets LM) to the fullest advantage with AoOs, and by tripping things proficiently. He already seems to do respectable damage with the huge sized weapon and good crits (and we have a wand of lead blades the alchemist can use to make the weapon function as the size category above huge for 10 rounds a pop), but there are always innumerable ways to up that. I didn't go with a reach weapon because his reach is already impressive, and while a reach weapon would increase it to ridiculous lengths, it would also mean I can't attack things that inevitably get adjacent to me.
His alignment is neutral good.
I agree that power attack is definitely something I want at some point, just not sure when.
I have a lot of old 3rd edition books, yes indeed, although I think my GM would be reluctant to port any over. Other than his own house rules and races, he tends to try to stick as close to core Pathfinder as he can, though he is good about listening to a case for 3rd party Pathfinder products. I think he would probably be less willing to look at a 3.5 supplement and import a class or feat or ability that hasn't already been "officially" ported in some capacity.
The spell-less ranger is a ranged ranger all the way, composite bow. Inquisitor is melee, with a strong emphasis on defense. The alchemist handles traps for the party.
Zarnof wrote: I would say what I most want him to do is battlefield control, along with respectable damage. Hmm.. if you're not locked into a fighter archetype until you get something that's altered/etc then rather than the two-handed variant, you might consider dawnflower dervish.. but your call here.
Starting at 4th:
Ftr2 <Power Attack>
Ftr3 Iron Will, (armor training or archetype replacement)
LM1 (Ka Stone)
Ftr4 CE, <Improved Trip>
Ftr5 (weapon training)
Ftr6 greater trip, <improved sunder>
-James
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I may be doing a Living Monolith build myself, but I'm starting as a dwarf flowing monk of the sacred mountain a taking my LM levels starting at 8. I was also going to focus on battle field control using attacks of opportunity. Ill take combat reflexes, stand still and combat patrol as feats and as a flowing monk opponents I hit with AoOs are flat footed if they fail a reflex save. Come my turn I wipe them up with my flurry of blows. The only problem I'm having is the lack of a monk reach weapon that does a significant amount of damage. Is it too unreasonable to ask the DM for a quarterstaff long enough to have reach?
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I like Oread for Living Monolith. Str bonus for hitting and Wis bonus w/Iron Will a req means they'd have a decent Will Save too.
I do love the Living Monolith for the rich flavour and I applaud the OP for going for something interesting and unusual. As it is a home-brew game, perhaps he could ask his GM to work something out involving the Minotaur's maze abilities? perhaps a Minotaur Living Monolith in a stone building can never get lost?
A bit off-topic and apologies, but it is a hugely underused class, I'd like to see it get some love. I want an Oread Stonelord Paladin/Living Monolith. Stonelord is Dwarf only for some silly reason, but if it wasn't it could make for a hugely thematic build. Incredibly hard to kill too, if not particularly action packed.
There is an Oread feat called Dwarfblooded in the ARG. Gives them the encumberance ability and stonecunning. GM might say "close enough" as a racial prerequesite.
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