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I know that this extraodinary ability is normally considered a staple for any skill monkey dealing with the perils of a dungeon; however, is there alternate ways of disabling magic traps? For example:
If a wizard were to use detect magic on a door, and finds that the door has been trapped to activate fireball upon opening the door, could he then just use an unprepared spellslot to prepare fireball and 'counter' it as soon as the trap is sprung?
Perception and Disable Device DCsThe builder sets the Perception and Disable Device DCs for a mechanical trap. For a magic trap, the values depend on the highest-level spell used.
Mechanical Trap : The base DC for both Perception and Disable Device checks is 20. Raising or lowering either of these DCs affects the CR (Table: CR Modifiers for Mechanical Traps).
Magic Trap : The DC for both Perception and Disable Device checks is equal to 25 + the spell level of the highest-level spell used. Only characters with the trapfinding class feature can attempt a Disable Device check involving a magic trap.
It would seem they can theoretically find the trap (though it would require more than just detect magic). However, they cannot disable the trap (counterspell or otherwise). They can however recognicze the trap and set it off from a distance or cast protection from elements etc.
What prevents dispelling a magic trap?
The desire to not make rogues totally useless. Of course even if one could dispel it it would be limited to the number of dispels one has memorized.
Seriously, why would dispel magic not work?
I see no reason why it wouldnt, but you'd still have to succeed on a caster level check. items (like wands) by default have the lowest caster level possible. CL 5 in the case of wands of dispel magic.
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When purchasing a wand, it's assumed that the spell is at the lowest possible caster level. However, if you can CREATE wands, your caster level is the caster level of the wand. This would arguably make it more expensive, but it's doable, (375g per caster level for 50 charges? pfft..... cake-walk). Not to mention all of the other benefits of 50 percent of off wands you can create.
You could figure out a way to feed your mother the wasted scroll paper.
Dispel Magic would work, though at lower levels, the rogue (and others that can disable magic traps) can do it without shelling out the money for a wand or scroll. That's not to say a wand of dispel magic is useless, but I feel that I'd rather use that resource on, say, negating a caster's spell that is giving me and my team issues.
It's just my general opinion though. Your mileage may indeed vary.
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Change 'monk' to 'Charismatic Paladin Monk', and we may have something :).Just use the method we rolled through a PFS scenario with a while back.
Perception Genius: "hey, there's a trap there."
Monk: "OK, stand back."
"Click, whoosh, zap, etc."
Monk: "OK trap's done. Did it reset?"
Already working on it, actually. But mine will also be the detect/disarm guy.
The beauty is in the LG roleplaying: asks everyone to stand back, checks/disables traps, then volunteers to test his own work by being the one to open the door/grab the item and spare everyone else any consequences of his own failure (if he fails).
Now that's a hero.
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Change 'monk' to 'Charismatic Paladin Monk', and we may have something :).Just use the method we rolled through a PFS scenario with a while back.
Perception Genius: "hey, there's a trap there."
Monk: "OK, stand back."
"Click, whoosh, zap, etc."
Monk: "OK trap's done. Did it reset?"Already working on it, actually. But mine will also be the detect/disarm guy.
The beauty is in the LG roleplaying: asks everyone to stand back, checks/disables traps, then volunteers to test his own work by being the one to open the door/grab the item and spare everyone else any consequences of his own failure (if he fails).
Now that's a hero.
That's right, put that spineless, useless rogue in his place!
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Every time a so-called "trap guy" announces that he's checking for traps and, despite there being no rush whatsoever, chooses to roll instead of taking 20, I get the overwhelming urge to pick him up and throw him bodily at the thing he searched.
"You couldn't spare two minutes to keep us alive? You gave it a three-second glance and called it safe?!? You go through first!"
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Also, for dispel magic, you would have to be careful of this (from the PRD on dispel magic):
If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item's caster level (DC = 11 + the item's caster level). If you succeed, all the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers its magical properties.
Since this seems to indicate that if it is not a spell that is a trap, it is a magic item:
Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do. Creating a magic device trap requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat.
Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Creating a spell trap requires the services of a character who can cast the needed spell or spells, who is usually either the character creating the trap or an NPC spellcaster hired for that purpose.
so, if you dispel it, better hurry through before it kicks on again. So, normally dispel magic would be a temp bypass (temp as between 6 and 24 seconds).
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Trap checking and Disabling aren't skills you can take 20 on. 10, yes, 20, no.Every time a so-called "trap guy" announces that he's checking for traps and, despite there being no rush whatsoever, chooses to roll instead of taking 20, I get the overwhelming urge to pick him up and throw him bodily at the thing he searched.
"You couldn't spare two minutes to keep us alive? You gave it a three-second glance and called it safe?!? You go through first!"
First: Never said you could take 20 on disabling the trap. I agree with you there.
Second: You can absolutely take 20 on perception checks to find traps. In fact, that's not even just an interpretation: the CRB even lists it as an example:
Common "take 20" skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
(Bolding mine.)
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Trap checking and Disabling aren't skills you can take 20 on. 10, yes, 20, no.Every time a so-called "trap guy" announces that he's checking for traps and, despite there being no rush whatsoever, chooses to roll instead of taking 20, I get the overwhelming urge to pick him up and throw him bodily at the thing he searched.
"You couldn't spare two minutes to keep us alive? You gave it a three-second glance and called it safe?!? You go through first!"
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
So, yes, you can take 20 to CHECK for traps... however, taking 20 on a disable device would more likely than not blow up your party.
EDIT: GAH, I've been post-ninja'd on this forum for the first time!
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Trap checking and Disabling aren't skills you can take 20 on. 10, yes, 20, no.Every time a so-called "trap guy" announces that he's checking for traps and, despite there being no rush whatsoever, chooses to roll instead of taking 20, I get the overwhelming urge to pick him up and throw him bodily at the thing he searched.
"You couldn't spare two minutes to keep us alive? You gave it a three-second glance and called it safe?!? You go through first!"
You can take 20 to look at a door.
The thing is taking 20 on a perception check generally means I roll on the wandering monster table. Since I can't do the latter in PFS play, I don't allow the former at PFS tables.
Despite the fact that the game explicitly says it's allowed? o.O
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The thing is taking 20 on a perception check generally means I roll on the wandering monster table. Since I can't do the latter in PFS play, I don't allow the former at PFS tables.
I'm not sure what wandering monster tables have to do with anything, but as for PFS, it's like this:
The Core rules explicitly allow T20 for searching for traps. Therefore, a PFS GM is required to allow it according to those rules. To do otherwise is to go against both the letter and spirit of PFS, as well as against the oft-repeated requests of the campaign coordinator.
However, T20 on Perception does take a couple of minutes in-game. If the situation would have consequences for spending that time, then of course you would apply those consequences (is that what you were getting at with the wandering monster thing?).
You may not disallow T20 on searching, but you may (and should) apply any applicable consequences of doing so.
Jiggy would indeed be right, on Page 86 clear as day. Never knew that but that's cool by me. Means my rogue can just do that in the game I'm in.
Of course, when you combine traps and combat... that makes for a fun day :)
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Jiggy would indeed be right, on Page 86 clear as day. Never knew that but that's cool by me. Means my rogue can just do that in the game I'm in.
Of course, when you combine traps and combat... that makes for a fun day :)
Especially if you combine pit traps with silent image versions of pit traps.
Lay out your pit traps like this
___________
[_]___[_]__
And lay down your silent image so it looks like this
___________
___[_]___[_]
Enjoy! ;)
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I'm also curious about the in-character explanation for any intelligent party member being okay with the Trap Guy rolling only a single check to search for traps (remembering that an active Perception check is merely a move action).
Haley (rogue): "Wait guys, let me check the door for traps first. Everyone out into the back hall, just in case."
*everyone goes away*
Haley (before anyone's even finished leaving): "Alright, it's clear!"
Durkon (cleric): Wait, what? You just spent two seconds glancing at it, and we're supposed to believe it's safe? Shouldn't a proper search have taken you a minute or two?
Some people just like to roll dice, for the sake of rolling dice.
Like a "woooo, shiny" kind of love.
Sorry, what was that? I was looking at this thing over here.
Jiggy would indeed be right, on Page 86 clear as day. Never knew that but that's cool by me. Means my rogue can just do that in the game I'm in.
Of course, when you combine traps and combat... that makes for a fun day :)
Especially if you combine pit traps with silent image versions of pit traps.
Lay out your pit traps like this
___________
[_]___[_]__And lay down your silent image so it looks like this
___________
___[_]___[_]Enjoy! ;)
+1. I now have to do this. :)
edit:I will have to look over my illusion rules. Some of them are not supposed to be used to hide other things, IIRC, but the general idea of this is what matters. :)
I'm also curious about the in-character explanation for any intelligent party member being okay with the Trap Guy rolling only a single check to search for traps (remembering that an active Perception check is merely a move action).
Haley (rogue): "Wait guys, let me check the door for traps first. Everyone out into the back hall, just in case."
*everyone goes away*
Haley (before anyone's even finished leaving): "Alright, it's clear!"
Durkon (cleric): Wait, what? You just spent two seconds glancing at it, and we're supposed to believe it's safe? Shouldn't a proper search have taken you a minute or two?
I'm imagining that scene from Pitch Black...
"I thought you said it was clear!?!"
"I said it looks clear."
"How does it look now?"
"... it looks clear"
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Maybe but depending on the DM that could be 2 minutes of searching per 5 foot square you move through couldn't it? Now when you run into really questionable things like doors or chests then maybe but checking thoroughly all the time ... eh.
This point of view is quite popular with GMs here in the Atlanta area. More than once I've heard "I take 20 to search the room" followed by "OK, I need everyone to deduct...one hour and twelve minutes from every buff you have up."
What prevents dispelling a magic trap?
Absolutely nothing.
Dispel Magic will only suppress a magic trap for 1d4 rounds, and only after a successful dispel check (which doesn't get better as you level since the CL is tied to the wand). 1d4 rounds may or may not be enough time for the party to clear the trap, and you don't know when the trap will reactivate until it hits you in the face.
Not to mention that Detect Magic doesn't know the difference between a chest trapped with a Fireball and a chest containing a wand of Lightning Bolt.