I am currently gearing up for a Skull and Shackles campaign, and have put a restriction on alignment to have non-lawful characters (mainly because i have heavy role-players in my group who take alignment very seriously, and don't want to cause party conflicts) But one of my players really wants to play a Paladin, but of Besmara. As she is definitely NOT Lawful Good, how would you suggest I go about this?
Since she is Chaotic Neutral, i plan to handle it kind of like a cleric of a neutral Deity, if he chooses to channel positive energy, use the regular Paladin class, and change anything that has the Lawful type in its build to Chaotic, and if he chooses negative, to go with the Antipaladin class.
With the Oath however, Should i have the paladin follow the Pirate's Code or Privateer's Code as his Code of Conduct?
Also, does anyone here feel that taking a paladin away from Lawful Good really hurts the class in general, from a fluff standpoint? I personally subscribe to the 4E concept of a Paladin as a holy warrior of a specific deity, that holds all which their deity represents to be the true way. Whether they are a Paladin of Pelor, or a Paladin of Orcus.
Try my Avenger CG paladin archetype ^-^
I recently modified it to choose only animal companions that start at Small size, but it should be what you need.
I'm with you on the Holy Warrior of ANY god scheme but, part of what sets the Paladin apart (in general) is the holy goodness they bring to the table. If they don't want to be good then have them make a Ranger or Fighter that prays to Besmara. Or a Fighter/cleric combo mix.
All of the Paladin class abilities pretty much depend on goodness to function and are designed specifically to combat evil. Neutral just doesn't have the solid conviction to fight or banish anything.
You could also check out the Chevalier prestige class. It requires you be good-aligned, but caters more to CG than LG, and thus a Chevalier of Besmara is legal. By Chevalier 3 (minimum character level 9) you can pick up the ability to smite evil, and a few other paladin-esque abilities.
It's not the best compromise, but it could work, depending on what your player wants from the paladin class.
One other option would be the Inquisitor. With archetypes you can turn it into a fairly convincing "Holy Warrior" type rather than the standard Torquemada / Van Helsing mashup.
If you really want to use Paladin, though, switching most of the anti-evil stuff to anti-lawful (Smite Law, Anarchic instead of Axiomatic for the Holy Bond, etc) will probably work out fine. Using the Pirate's Code as the Paladin Code is honestly just inspired.
I'm with you on the Holy Warrior of ANY god scheme but, part of what sets the Paladin apart (in general) is the holy goodness they bring to the table. If they don't want to be good then have them make a Ranger or Fighter that prays to Besmara. Or a Fighter/cleric combo mix.
All of the Paladin class abilities pretty much depend on goodness to function and are designed specifically to combat evil. Neutral just doesn't have the solid conviction to fight or banish anything.
I have to respectfully disagree with someone of a Neutral leaning not having the conviction to fight or banish anything. Take an Anarchist (in the theoretical sense, not what we have in this world calling themselves that) They believe in freedom above all else, and are willing to fight and die in order to bring down any laws that restrict said freedoms. I seem to remember in NWN 2, there was a domain ability given that was something like "smite infidel" which gave the ability to smite anyone with a different alignment than your own, though i would change it to being anything axiomatically opposed.
Also the paladin as presented in 3.5/PFS i feel presents only one kind of paladin. I agree that all paladins should have a code of honor/conduct, however the LG pigeonhole really takes away a lot of the roleplaying oppurtunities that 4E presented for the paladin. Also the flavor of a fighter who prays to besmara is not what this player is looking for, and all of us at the table agree that multiclassing really hurts in the long run for a short term benefit.
Talk to your GM to let you adapt the Paladin of Freedom from Unearthed Aracana to Pathfinder, but remember that Skulls and Shackles is a pirate campaing, and not the freindly ones.
The Anti-paladin might be more suitable for the campaing, but if you want a holy warrior a cleric/ holy vindicator is the closest I can think of that.
Humbly,
Yawar
Oh I am the GM Yawar, I'm just trying to figure out a way that won't unbalance the campaign too much. I have played paladins of neutrality in other campaigns, one of my favorites is my Paladin of the Raven queen in a 4e campaign who is TN, (we kept the 9 alignments because Unaligned opened too many cans of worms) and it is pretty fun. Almost fell because I accidentally befriended a lich who i had on speed dial... damn my int dump stat to not recognize a lich for what he was lol. I think I am just going to have all the abilities that are Evil based become Lawful, like the DR and such. but I'm going to ask the player if she's channeling positve or negative energy, just so I know how to handle undead around her. She wants to be a champion of true freedom of choice, and have the pirate's code as her Paladin Code, unless she would rather be a privateer, which then I'll use the Privateer code.
I just remebered, there was an Anarchist alternate class for the paladin in 3.5, I think that would be a better start, for adjusting a new class for a chaotic neutral paladin (extra smite damage to constructs, outsiders(lawful), and something else).
It depends on your interpretation of the word 'Lawful'. I've always maintained that paladins should be any lawful alignment because a paladin is a holy warrior who strictly follows the tenants of a their specific god. It should be theoretically possibly to play a lawful paladin of a chaotic god because you are sticking very strictly to the teachings of that (otherwise chaotic) god.
Basically, lawful characters don't have to follow the laws of the land. A very religious character like a paladin should consider the rules of his god to take precedence over any temporal laws of man.
What in the Abyss would a Paladin of Besmara DO? Obviously a paladin of a lawful good God is about enforcing order and protecting the weak, smiting evil, and spreading the cause of goodness and light at the point of a sword. What would a holy warrior of Besmara do? Spread the word about how awesome being a pirate is? Protect pirates from the forces of law and order? It just doesn't seem plausible. (Those are all suitable things for worshippers of Besmara to do, of course, but they do not fit the concept of a paladin.) You could try the options mentioned in the thread from 3.5 splatbooks but my recommendation from pathfinder core rules would be inquisitor. Judgements are much like smites, they are a little more casty and a little less fighty than paladins but on a ship you really want a more flexible character anyway. The skill ranks would allow you to be an effective pirate, and any champion of Besmara should be able to handle a ship.
Building a cleric into the Vindicator would look like alot of fun for this, especially with the bleed effects.
(A pirate looking all deranged and banged up, suddenly starts dripping blood from his wounds and becomes some kind of empowered warrior. Good times.)
I'm actually about to run S&S as well - I rerolled Sandara as a CG Holy Gun. (And yes, I traded Diplomacy for Bluff, as per the old UA variant.) It's perfectly do-able, so far as I can see, so long as you define your values. My Sandara, for example, is emphatically opposed to binding/incarceration - either it's a killing offense, or it's probably not much to bother about. Stranding on a desert island is alright, too - with a bit of ingenuity, and Besmara's luck, it's not necessarily permanent. If this philosophy is tested, I do fully intend to have her lose her paladinship for tying a man up, delivering a man to the law, or directly encouraging this to happen.
For CN - I've had thoughts on this, which will likely become a thread of its own soon, but...there was a line from the Once and Future King, something about a knight never turning down a quest. It was, I believe, Pelenor and a few others, who were standing by the riverbank and a barge floated up to settle near them - in keeping with this tenet, they just immediately hopped on the barge to see where it would take them. So a paladin who takes adventures as their code, playing up the 'knight errant' concept, would suit CN very well, I think. The only trouble is finding a significant threat to his paladinship - what can the guy do wrong? Playing it safe, maybe? Refusing to roll those dice?
Alternatively, a Besmaran paladin could simply have a defensive code, rather than an offensive one. Defend the pirate way - help any lad or lass to become a pirate if they so choose. Always stick up for a pirate, except against other pirates. Toss a bit of every treasure to Besmara's bed. That sort of thing.
I'm thinking that this player wants a Will Turner/Jim Hawkins type character, you know full of ideals and good, but also still willing to do whats needed instead of whats necessarily "right". I'm actually pushing them into Buccaneer or Freebooter since i feel that more fits the fluff of their character.
Gestalt; Divine Caster + Barbarian/Fighter/Warrior... give the high Hit dice and BAB of the Paladin and most/all his proficiencies.
I'm thinking that this player wants a Will Turner/Jim Hawkins type character, you know full of ideals and good, but also still willing to do whats needed instead of whats necessarily "right". I'm actually pushing them into Buccaneer or Freebooter since i feel that more fits the fluff of their character.
Will Turner was clearly chaotic good. A lawful good character would have tried every method of rescuing Jack Sparrow that the law allowed him, and then prayed for Jack's soul as he was hanged.
Inquisitor, Freebooter, Buccaneer, and Pirate (Rogue archetype) are all good options. One option that would be very thematic although perhaps undepowered from a mechanical standpoint would to layer the Pirate and Sanctified Rogue archetypes.
I'm thinking that this player wants a Will Turner/Jim Hawkins type character, you know full of ideals and good, but also still willing to do whats needed instead of whats necessarily "right". I'm actually pushing them into Buccaneer or Freebooter since i feel that more fits the fluff of their character.
That actually sounds like a character that would be able to create a lot of party conflict. Is everyone on the same page on what type of pirates they want to be?
Might also conflict with the plot in part one, and
A true paladin of freedom!
LOVE IT!
Wait, think about this...isn't Batman a Chaotic Good Paladin? *mind blown*
Inquisitor for the win.
Wait, think about this...isn't Batman a Chaotic Good Paladin? *mind blown*No magical powers. I'd call him a ranger.
Edit: with the skirmisher archetype of course.
Nonsense; he has the superpower of being The G$#+$@n Batman, of course.
Whether Batman is lawful good, lawful neutral, neutral, neutral good, or chaotic good depends on which version of batman is being written. Some alternatives even have other alignments.
Inquisitor is where you want your player to go. Awesome class, very appropiate for a holy warrior of Besmara.
Ignore the idiotic "all Inquisitors are humorless pricks" stricture Paizo seems to want to impose on players.
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I am of the personal belief that a paladin is LG and that is all. Anything other than LG is not a paladin.
I would steer the player to an Inquisitor. I think the abilities of an Inquisitor will better suit a player in Skull & Shackles better than a paladin anyway.
Playing a paladin in a pirate game would be tough. Even without the lawful part. What part of championing freedom supports finding lone merchant ships, murdering their crews and stealing their cargo? You just robbed the crew of their freedoms and lives, stole their livlihoods.
Even privateers have a hard time justifying being good in such a game. Sure it is lawful for you to plunder Cheliax ships and murder their crews, but again how is it good. And your lawful act only applies to the nations you are licensed to attack. Attack the wrong ship and you are a pirate. For example, a real life pirate (forgot his name) was an English pirate hunter and accidentally attacked another country's ship with a diplomat on it. He really thought it was a pirate. But he was branded pirate and hung for it.
If he REALLY has to play a paladin, then maybe use should look for another game. If he REALLY wants to play Skull & Shackles then he should play something more in line with the feel of the game. But I cannot in any way find a way to justify stealing and murdering as being good in any way.
And a non lawful non good paladin is not a paladin. You can create something else with a similar feel, but it's not a paladin. It's like making a wizard that casts divine spells. Well, okay, but it's not a wizard...
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Wait, think about this...isn't Batman a Chaotic Good Paladin? *mind blown*No magical powers. I'd call him a ranger.
Edit: with the skirmisher archetype of course.
Nonsense; he has the superpower of being The G&@+&!n Batman, of course.
Whether Batman is lawful good, lawful neutral, neutral, neutral good, or chaotic good depends on which version of batman is being written. Some alternatives even have other alignments.
Batman is an Inquisitor, not a paladin.
I know... Cause... I'm Batman!
;-)
I am of the personal belief that a paladin is LG and that is all. Anything other than LG is not a paladin.
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And a non lawful non good paladin is not a paladin. You can create something else with a similar feel, but it's not a paladin. It's like making a wizard that casts divine spells. Well, okay, but it's not a wizard...
I agree with this part, Paladin=LG.
What part of championing freedom supports finding lone merchant ships, murdering their crews and stealing their cargo?
Where is it written pirates (or privateers) have to murder the crews? Did I miss a memo somewhere?
Read Red Seas Under Red Skies for a good view on why pirates wouldn't do that.
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Wait, think about this...isn't Batman a Chaotic Good Paladin? *mind blown*
Batman is all alignments didn't you know?
Batman's Alignment
Wait, think about this...isn't Batman a Chaotic Good Paladin? *mind blown*Batman is all alignments didn't you know?
Batman's Alignment
That was great!
It's a pirate game. Tell the player not to be an eejit and to pick something more suitable!! :P
*Insert expletives as and where appropriate.
It's working out fine for me. :P
As I said, I rerolled Sandara as a Holy Gun, and I've got a swashbuckly Paladin of Cayden Cailean in the game. They're actually a great balance to the very rough'n'tumble fighter (Cad) and rogue. All told, my party falls pretty strictly into Neutral territory. The AP, so far at least, doesn't require much in the way of evil acts, and I see no reason why romantic piracy (as opposed to a rather boring historical piracy) should preclude generally decent folks, even if they do have their rough edges. Especially in this setting, in this location - between LE demon-worshiping Cheliax and vehemently antideity (and, I've often imagined, anti-superstition) Rahadoum - it seems that the primary motivation of any Shackles pirate is freedom.
That said, I do have a notion brewing in the back of my brain for a more obviously good-natured yet piratical AP back in the Inner Sea. Something between the Andoran freebooters and the Okeno slave-trade, I think.
While I don't actually go for evil campaigns, I have to admit that I'm liking that concept... It wouldn't be very difficult, I think - picture Robert Jordan's Whitecloaks, for a start. Very strict, very fundamentalist, no-quarter types. This would actually make for a fantastic BBEG, as someone who thinks that they are in fact the hero of the story. Hrm, I should work this guy into something...Carrion Crown, maybe? Thanks!