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5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/merciful-spell-metamagic
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage
these two together i'm being told i can do infinite magic missle, or cure light wounds and any other first level spell.
The tell me if the Merciful meta-magic spell is applied then they apply Magical Lineage to it and get infinite number?
No it doesn't actually lower the spell level just the effective level.
From what I've seen the reason you couldn't get infinite is the fact that cantrips is a class feature for spells listed at level 0. You don't have any level 0 slots, so you couldn't cast any in that slot. At least that's how I read it.
Wizard, 0 lvl spell slots 4
Magical Lineage: treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
You apply merciful to a magic missile spell its adjusted spell level is 1 - 1 = 0
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from an opposition school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).
0-Level Spells, cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
Would the reduction in the spell's final adjusted level reflect in magic item creation for pricing?
that i do not know Blackblood, I only know what its used spell slot is considered which would be 0 there by making it a cantrip spell slot. If the magic item pricing makes it based off of adjusted spell level or actual spell level i dont know.
maybe if you added another metamagic like Intensified, so the spell goes back to a 1st lvl spell slot, it could then be calculated normally, not to mention when cast as an intensified Merciful Magic Missile it could at lvl 20 be doing 10d4+10 non lethal dmg
You can not reduce the effective metamagic adjustment below zero with that trait.
You're far from the first to try this particular form of cheese.
Can you add Merciful to a non-damaging spells?
As for magic items, cantrips are calculated at spell level 1/2.
Honestly, I don't see a big problem with this use of metamagic reducing Magic Missile to a cantrip. MM is not particularly powerful. You are still limited to the action economy, now dealing non-lethal damage to boot? What the heck, do it all day long. DnD NEXT playtest indicates that Magic Missile will become a cantrip in the next version of the game anyway.
I would only allow this use of Cure Light Wounds if it was being used to harm undead, not for reduceing the price of healing magic. ... ... OK, I would also let you heal nonlethal damage with it as an orison.
A wand of Tenebrous Darkness at 750 gp sounds good to me.
It's a first level spell with the meta-magic and trait applied to it. Let's put it this way: no 0th level spell does 5d4+5 at 9th level, no matter what meta-magic applies to it. It fails the balance test.
no merciful cannot be applied to a spell if it does not deal hhp of damage so if the cure/inflict was not doing actual dmg as intended it couldnt be applied.
in the sense of game balance I agree with LazarX, but in the RAW rules of the game nothing actually says that this can't happen with the MagicaL Lineage, so if your company doesnt want it interpreted that way as a RAW perspective release something on it. and the trait doesnt apply to the spell til you actually well apply it.
I dont see how saying that the metamagic and the spell cant be a zero.
the Metamagic is Magic Missile, 1st lvl, merciful 0 adjustment, the trait - 1 adjustmennt, 0 lvl spell slot. Wizards and Priests both get 0 lvl spell slots per day. and both cantrips and Orisons cast as a spell slot functioning as any other spell.
The rules of metamagic doesnt say it cant go to a zero level spell slot.
it says that a spell uses the spell slot its adjusted too or the RAW wording:
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
Well this doesnt use a higher lvl spell slot it doesnt modify the magic missile at all, and it could be a mericful shocking grasp for that matter, its still a 1st lvl spell, the trait makes it a 0 lvl spell slot because a metamagic was applied to it.
So again, yes Game balance LazarX i agree with you.
RAW, I disagree. its a 0-lvl Cantrip
I think this is one of the quite uninteresting RAW questions...
Can we, based on details omitted in the trait, read the rules in a way that allows something that without a doubt is exploitative? Yes, we can.
Should we do it? Nah, it is so obviously unbalanced that it screams to GMs to say no.
PS. I wouldn't allow the trait to adjust other spells to a level below their original spell level.
haraldklak, as a dm im not saying i would allow it in my games either, thats not what i am asking, is it a legal (game balancing or not) use of the spell, the feat, and the trait. is it a RAW combination.
Wow another one of these!!! No you can't drop a metamagic spell below the spells level.
is there a section in the rules that says it 8 red?
Thank you everyone, A player in our game brought this up and we couldn't find a rule on it. Our Gm was going to allow it but after seeing everyone reply he has realized his failure. He normal uses RAW or we come here to discuss things and get others PoV on the subject.
again thank you.
Mike J.
Evan Riggs wrote: is there a section in the rules that says it 8 red? Go with this one
Metamagic Feats
As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities.
Not higher or lower.... higher
Evan Riggs wrote:
So again, yes Game balance LazarX i agree with you.
RAW, I disagree. its a 0-lvl Cantrip
Raw also says that the GM is empowered to cover the areas where RAW does not so that he can enforce game balance. When push comes to shove, the Rules Lawyer Munchkin loses out to the Game Master at the table. and that's RAW.
MC regardless of what that general statement about metamagic feats says, the specific statement about merciful spell says:
Merciful Spell (Metamagic)
Your damaging spells subdue rather than kill.
Benefit: You can alter spells that inflict damage to inflict nonlethal damage instead. Spells that inflict damage of a particular type (such as fire) inflict nonlethal damage of that same type. A merciful spell does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell's actual level.
by your logic, any use of merciful spell as a metamagic feat would require one spell slot higher even though it says in the description that it uses the same spell slot.
also by your logic, magical lineage wouldnt affect any metamagic feats that only have a +1 level increase, because the net result would be that the level would stay the same.
regardless of what you think, it's very clear what Merciful Spell does, and what the magical lineage trait does. when you take the two together you are trading a feat, a trait, the ability to do lethal damage (also means you dont do damage to undead, so unless you fill a level 1 slot with regular magic missile you're back to normal cantrips, hope you got one that is useful at all) and in the case of classes that dont prepare spells additional casting time (loss of move action) for a pretty basic attack that scales with every other level that you can cast at any time.
at levels one and two, that means you can do 1d4+1 every round. congratualtions, you're an archer. at level three, wizards can cast admonishing ray at least twice a day, which means that if you do enough fighting to the point where you would have normally used all your level 1 and 2 spells, you may notice a slight boost in damage, but for a feat and a trait that's not outlandish. At level 5 you'll rarely use magic missile, and when you do you probably wont get anything from the fact that it's a lvl 0 spell. by level 7 admonishing ray can do 8d6 and between it and your third and fourth level spells, you probably wont be casting magic missile at all.
so for a feat and a trait you get some low level firepower. if i were rolling a wizard, i'd use the feat and trait for something that might actually help me past lvl 4 and do my 1d3 cantrips for a couple rounds each day.
the wording in merciful spell clearly prevents any heal spamming (must be used on a spell that deals damage), which is the only possible balance issue, and it even covers usage as a weapon against undead, because undead are immune to nonlethal damage.
all in all, the only use i can see is for characters that want to focus their spell buying on things that really arent helpful in combat, while maintaining some semblance of usefulness in combat.
as a note, i guess if you're doing a short campaign where there isnt much to the plot and you're basically just fighting 5 times a day, it could be an imbalanced combination, but that doesnt sound like any fun to begin with :)
LazarX wrote: Evan Riggs wrote:
So again, yes Game balance LazarX i agree with you.
RAW, I disagree. its a 0-lvl Cantrip
Raw also says that the GM is empowered to cover the areas where RAW does not so that he can enforce game balance. When push comes to shove, the Rules Lawyer Munchkin loses out to the Game Master at the table. and that's RAW. while that's true, it's not going to engender much goodwill to tell people what they can and cant do with legitimate feats and traits.
what i would do is let them enjoy their 1.x points of bonus damage until they hit level 3 and then fully within my rights as dm start sending them undead or if that doesnt fit with the story just make every mob non-lethal immune or resistant.
basically i feel like there's an important difference between making fundamental changes to the way mechanics work and using DM powers to balance out people trying to get away with stuff.
In at least one of the uncountable threads on that topic JJ ruled that you can not turn a spell level 1+ into a cantrip with that trick.
But as those threads come up way too often I'm not going to search for the one with that official clarification.
Here is JJ's answer on the matter.
Of course, this will mean next to nothing to those on the boards who claim "but he's not an official rulesboy nah nah nah!", and even less to those who think they have understood the game better than the developers do... so, happy discussing!
Rule 0 don't be a jerk. you know better
Midnight_Angel wrote: Here is JJ's answer on the matter.
Of course, this will mean next to nothing to those on the boards who claim "but he's not an official rulesboy nah nah nah!", and even less to those who think they have understood the game better than the developers do... so, happy discussing!
I'll see you JJ and raise you JB on the issue.
Jason Bulmahn wrote: Hey there Folks,
Magical Lineage was never intended as a way for you to actually lower a spell's level. It was put in to allow you to reduce the increase from a metamagic feat. So, no unlimited magic missiles. I will see to it that the language of this ability is clarified soon and I will get this added to the FAQ.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Quote: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. So as by the metamagic rules, the spell operates as a level 1 spell that uses a level 0 spell slot.
Quote: Cantrips
Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
So even with the metamagic applied the spell still operates as a level 1 spell, so unless I missed something the cantrip rules will never apply to it because it doesn't operate as a cantrip, but as a level 1 spell using a level 0 slot.
So in that case you could prepare it in a level 0 slot, but the cantrip rules would not apply to it since it doesn't operate as a cantrip but as a level 1 spell, so it would simply be expended after one cast.
LazarX wrote: Evan Riggs wrote:
So again, yes Game balance LazarX i agree with you.
RAW, I disagree. its a 0-lvl Cantrip
RAW also says that the GM is empowered to cover the areas where RAW does not so that he can enforce game balance. When push comes to shove, the Rules Lawyer Munchkin loses out to the Game Master at the table. and that's RAW. He CAN do that if he wants. He is not FORCED to do so. I'd allow that as DM, but then again, I am crazy like that, and Magic Missile is hardly a powerful spell.
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