go through the abilities, does the word melee appear? If not I would say they should work, as long as the specified mechanic makes practical sense. Do you have an example?
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Here is one:
Shield of Swings (Combat)
A wild frenzy of attacks serves to bolster your defenses.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you take a full-attack action while wielding a two-handed weapon, you can choose to reduce the damage by 1/2 to gain a +4 shield bonus to AC and CMD until the beginning of your next turn. The reduction in damage applies until the beginning of your next turn.
Here is another:
Overhand Chop (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1
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Here is one:
** spoiler omitted **Here is another:
** spoiler omitted **
These are specific melee abilities. For one Shield of Swings requires Powert Attack to work, which is a melee specific feat, and I would say it's pretty clear that Overhand Chop is melee-only as well, seeing as you don't do a lot of chopping with ranged weapons.
Yep. I think that just reading through the abilities makes it clear. But "technically", it's still impossible due to what was said above. If you look in the weapons section, you'll find that each category of weapon (simple, martial, exotic) is split-up into weapon types (unarmed, light, one handed, two handed, ranged, and ammunition. I am positive that the wording "two-handed weapon" refers to these.
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Are one-handed and two-handed firearms not weapons?
Some firearms are melee weapons as well, do they not count?
What about two handed thrown weapons?
Some thrown weapons are melee as well, do they not count?
Are composite bows not counting? They require two hands, and add strength to damage.
1. They are of course. Just like bows and crossbows are weapons. But they're ranged weapons.
2. If firearms have a melee ability then melee specific feats apply to only the melee "attachment" (I assume you're talking about stuff like the axemusket). In that case you could have a PC with that weapon and use Power Attack and Shield of Swings that would only work when using the axe part of the musket, while feats such as Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot would only work with the musket part.
3. Which weapons would that be?
4. Thrown weapons that are also melee weapons, such as daggers, do not gain any benefits from melee-centric feats when thrown, because they then turn into ranged weapons.
5. Composite bows are ranged weapons. As such they do not gain any melee-centric feats unless you would choose to club someone with it, which would then make it an improvised weapon. You could however, cast Bowstaff on it and turn it into either a club or quarterstaff, but again, that would turn it into a melee weapon and not a ranged weapon.
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Most feats and abilities call themselves out as melee or ranged only. These do not.
Are you saying a ranged weapon cannot be light, one-handed, or two-handed?
Well, if you look at the weapon tables in the Core book then you see that there's nothing there that identifies ranged weapons as light, one handed or two handed.
You have two primary categories: melee and ranged which both contain simple, martial and exotic tags . Of those only melee has sub-categories; light, one-handed, two-handed.
What do you think the intent is, bbt? This might be different from what you want it to be, but I am curious.
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Shield of Swings require power attack a prerequisite, but is not needed to function.
Overhand Chop seems perfectly capable of being used with say, the Hurling rage power.
Also, nobody chops with a greatclub.
Actually it's perfectly reasonable to describe a blow with a greatclub as chop, as chop doesn't necessarily mean to cut. Though that is of course the most common usage.
You are right about Hurling Rage being used for melee though: "As a full-round action while raging, the barbarian can lift and hurl an object up to one size category smaller than herself with both hands or two size categories smaller with one hand as an improvised weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. This inflicts damage as a falling object (Core Rulebook 443) plus the barbarian's Strength bonus. This damage is halved if the object is not made of stone, metal, or similar material. This is a ranged touch attack, and the target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian's level + the barbarian's Strength modifier) for half damage. The barbarian may apply Power Attack to this attack as a one- or two-handed weapon, as appropriate."
But note that they included a special provision in that power that allows power attack to be used for this ability. As for using Overhand Chop with that, well, it's a bit iffy to be, to be honest. A GM's call I'd say.
And what about bows?
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These feats and abilities are not called out as melee.
They refer to two-handed weapons.
Sling staff and Net are examples of two handed ranged weapons as well.
Well there's this from the Equipment chapter: "Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon."
Nets are really a non-issue since they don't deal damage.
Likewise when used as a ranged weapon the slingstaff is a projectile weapon so, for instance, the Hurling Rage power wouldn't apply there. If only because Hurling Rage applies to objects treated as improvised weapons and not ranged projectile weapons. I suppose you could hurl a ranged weapon (as in from that category) but then you would be treating it as an improvised weapon and would use the appropriate damage for an improvised weapon of that size and not the weapon's actual damage dice.
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Are you saying there is no penalty difference between two weapon fighting by throwing daggers, or tridents?
By your logic, they are no longer light, or one-handed weapons once thrown. They are transformed into ranged, a category that has no such designation.
How do you define the effort to use a ranged weapon if they are not One-Handed, or Two-Handed weapons?
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Are you saying there is no penalty difference between two weapon fighting by throwing daggers, or tridents?
By your logic, they are no longer light, or one-handed weapons once thrown. They are transformed into ranged, a category that has no such designation.How do you define the effort to use a ranged weapon if they are not One-Handed, or Two-Handed weapons?
I'm honestly not following. I thought this thread was about two handed weapons and not two weapon fighting. I'm just going to assume that you meant two handed in that first sentence and continue on.
1. Daggers when used as melee weapons are light. Tridents are one handed melee weapons that can be thrown with a range increment of 10ft. As such you can apply your strength bonus to damage but that's it. Using Two-Handed Thrower only allows you to apply 1 1/2 your strength to the attack roll. If Paizo publishes a feat like Powerful Throw (or something to that effect) that allows you to use power attack with a thrown weapon, then fair enough. You could even house rule that (Wizards did a feat like that in one of their splat books back in 3.5).
2. It's not my logic, it's right there in the rules. Didn't you read the quote I posted?
3. As for the effort used for ranged weapons: most projectile weapons require two hands, one to hold the weapon steady and the other to fire the weapon. There's no real extra effort required. Now with thrown weapons it's a different matter, but that's where the strength bonus applies (I know composite bows requires strength bonuses but that's to draw the string -- as in the bonus is locked and inherent in the weapon, you need the strength to wield it).
Also, it doesn't matter if you two-hand nets (again I'm assuming you are talking about two-handed fighting and not two-weapon fighting which are two very different things) as they don't do damage.
Quick edit to add stuff.
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I still have not seen any proof that only melee weapons can be two-handed weapons.
This is even harder to prove, as there are ranged weapons that require two hands to wield.
Yes they require both hands to use, so they are weapons you use with two hands. But that doesn't mean that they are two-handed weapons which is what they game uses to differentiate between the three categories of melee weapons, as is made clear in the quote I posted.
I'm honestly running out of ways to try and make this clear, so live and let live. Good night.
At this point, i'm not sure that there's anything printed that will satisfy your search, bbt. We are all convinced by the point that looking at the weapons section in the core rulebook, it is all mapped out in different categories, ranged being an entirely separate section. This comes down to the fact that you refuse to believe that the terminology in the feat refers to the exact same terminology used in the equipment section. I don't think anybody can help you. To each his own!
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Your quote, by the way, is under melee weapons. Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed exist. There is also nothing stating that a ranged weapon cannot be one of these as well.There's nothing stating that Perception cannot be one of these either. Light Perception, One-Handed Perception, and Two-Handed Perception. Nothing states that elephants don't fall under one of those categories either.
Proving a negative is impossible. Source: logic.
Ranged weapons are Ranged weapons, they are not Light weapons, they are not One-Handed weapons, they are not Two-Handed weapons. They may act as them or require the same mode of operation, but they do not fall under those categories.
So, a trident is not both a two handed weapon and a ranged thrown weapon?
An musket axe is not a ranged and melee weapon?
I doubt you're going to find a different answer on these forums. As a DM I would certainly NOT allow you to use these feats the way you want to. They're obviously meant to be used with a melee weapon. No group I currently play with would let you get away with using them as you suggest either.
Yup.
I would allow shield of swings to be used with a bow if you were considered threatening with said bow.(Zen archer most likely) Also I would allow large bludgeoning thrown objects for overhand chop.
Also, "chop" refers to the motion, not the item used.
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Overhand Chop is also worded in that a barbarian with jotungrip could get x2 strength when attacking with a greatsword held in one hand.
Shield of Swings is worded that a maneuver master monk could do his Flurry of Maneuvers, use the feat, and lose nothing.
Using these feats and abilities in conjunction with certain ranged weapons appears RAW to me, and not even the most powerful use of either.
Crossbow, Hand: You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.
Crossbow, Heavy: You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
Crossbow, Repeating: The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts.
BBT read over these as you can see Crossbows specificly call out how to treat them for TWF.
If they simply functioned off how many hands one needed then we wouldn't need those lines.