Goblin Squad Member
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In anticipation of Pathfinder Online, I started up an EVE Online account to get a feel for how some of the systems might work. I don't expect them to be identical, by any means, but I'm hoping I might be able to at least get a general sense of how some of the systems interact with each other. Last night, I noticed something about the PvP experience that I want to talk about.
A little background, first. I enjoy PvP. My first real PvP experience was Dark Age of Camelot (DAoC) which I played from the day of launch. Ironically, I kind of did the same thing with DAoC that I'm now doing with EVE. I got started with DAoC to check out what PvP was like, in anticipation of Star Wars Galaxies which I knew was going to have faction-based PvP as a core element of the game. DAoC, as a theme park MMO, had its flaws and has suffered from them over time but one thing that I think it did very well was introduce players new to PvP into a PvP environment in a way that didn't frighten them off.
The PvP experiences in DAoC were all consensual, though some were more consensual than others. There were areas of the game that were completely free from PvP and then there were the frontiers. In the beginning, people would often PvE in the frontiers, levelling up on content there. In doing so, they recognized the possibility that PvP could occur, but they weren't really there FOR the PvP, they were there to level on PvE content. So it was technically consensual since they chose to be there knowing that PvP could occur, but not fully consensual in that they weren't looking to PvP, they were just looking to level.
Over time however, customers utilized that content less and less for fear of getting rolled by a roving band of PvP'ers. People avoided less-than-fully-consensual PvP until they got to the level cap where things were more equal. When Mythic (the makers of DAoC) saw that all this content was getting ignored by people levelling up, they introduced the Battlegrounds. Those were lower-level areas of frontier where each area allowed characters of a narrow level range so people could be assured that they would be able to dip their toes into the water of PvP without fear of being overwhelmed by characters who were grossly more powerful than them.
That feature is missing from EVE and I fear that it may be overlooked in Pathfinder Online. I think a game with PvP as a core mechanic can really benefit from an introductory level of PvP where people can check it out without fear of getting totally ganked with zero chance to enjoy the experience. Maybe we can toss around some ideas for how to introduce customers gradually to PvP in a way that ensures characters of like power are matched together.
Perhaps areas (arenas?) could be set aside that limit PvP engagement to characters that have a certain point total in the combat-centric skill tree? I know the subject of arenas has been brought up in the context of duelling but, rather than consequence-free duelling, perhaps it could be implemented with all the normal consequences of death. There would likely be no looting within that environment because everyone would dump their non-essential gear prior to going in so they didn't lose it.
Or maybe PvP missions as part of the tutorial? If you have a particular mission, you can only be engaged in PvP by someone with the matching mission. Make it a mission provided in the tutorial in an area isolated from the rest of the game? The mission would have to expire after a certain duration and would need to have a limit for how many times you could re-acquire it after expiration to prevent people from using it as a shield to protect themselves permanently.
Or perhaps someone can think of some better ideas for how to introduce customers gradually to a PvP environment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's an interesting idea, but completely not at all what they're aiming for. What you're suggesting, and I'm not suggesting in any way that it is right or wrong, creates a completely different experience than the open PvP they've already announced. Again, I'm not saying a worse or better experience, but you may as well be talking about two completely different games with the night and day difference such a system would make.
It's going to be up to players to decide as a group if PvP is getting out of hand and how they're going to manage it themselves from within the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's an interesting idea, but completely not at all what they're aiming for. What you're suggesting, and I'm not suggesting in any way that it is right or wrong, creates a completely different experience than the open PvP they've already announced. Again, I'm not saying a worse or better experience, but you may as well be talking about two completely different games with the night and day difference such a system would make.
It's going to be up to players to decide as a group if PvP is getting out of hand and how they're going to manage it themselves from within the game.
Actually reading his post it dosn't sound like the normal wanting to convert PVP into a consentual only thing. It is more on the lines of say if the game has a tutorial or a training island that is seperate from the rest of the game, giving the players a chance to learn the basics of PVP before entering the deep end of the pool. IE he isn't wanting the main game to be changed at all, just for what Ryan reffers to as "The new player experience", to have some sort of a controlled toned down PVP, before they enter the real world and have regular bouts in which PVP situations will often have one side at a huge disadvantage.
I myself am in favor of the idea of a newbie island or something along those lines, where you learn the basics and rules before taking the 1 way trip into the real world of the game, and it makes perfect sense that PVP is a topic that should be covered in said training, though I have no real clue how to do it reasonably where it can't wind up as a road block if no one else is doing the quest at the time etc...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hurtful words...if you've actually paid any attention to my posts I've consistently taken a stance of players policing griefing. I've spoken about how assassins need to behave responsibly so that the larger population views them as needed. What you describe is a bandit. That would be like me calling you a pacifist librarian, or your "oddly short elf" a halfling: ie. us painting each in extremes which simply aren't true.
Even if I were a bandit, you're talking about making a pretty lame living chasing people around on a newbie island. Maybe you should stick to writing books ;)
And Onishi, I would point out that he is asking for gradual introduction to PvP, and limiting it to only players close to your level range. Reading the op I see the emphasis being quite light on a isolated tutorial, although I agree that would be a better way to handle it. Brief tutorial with PvP, no way to move on to other content until tutorial is either completed or skipped.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, an area in which PvP can happen, where only low-level new players have an incentive to be?
Sounds like exactly the place where a twinked out low-level griefer would freqent. I'm surprised Blaeringr doesn't approve.
If you had read my post a bit closer
before taking the 1 way trip into the real world of the game
When you are talking a newbie learning area, it does not have to be possible to return. You could be dissallowed from training skills past a certain level in the newbie island, resources to make high quality gear could be completely unavailable, and the ticket off could be a one way ticket.
Many games don't allow returning to newbie areas, Ryzom if I recall once you leave the starter island you can never come back, DDO loads up a parallel instance if you return to the newbie zone etc...
Now of course the drawback of this, is that in this world, you have no chance of being coached or guided by a vet, unless that vet made an alt just to coach newbies, however if that is just the starting introduction, there is no reason there can't be a seperate starting area after that, which is connected to the real world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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-snip- think a game with PvP as a core mechanic can really benefit from an introductory level of PvP where people can check it out without fear of getting totally ganked with zero chance to enjoy the experience.-snip-
As long as GW is able to manage the parasite load of "true gankers" by:
(I think GW mention that "ganking" will be dealth with via):1) If a player continually "ganks" - out of game
2) Reprisals are very strong on ganking
3) Zones of lawless-lawful where "murder" would lead to 2), which
4) Leads to a whole industry for bounty-hunters
So the ethos of the game is really that you make a decision to take risk or take safety when it comes to PvP in lawful or lawless areas. If you take risk, then you take the necessary security - that is a NEED for a party and socialize with other players to help each other and even mentor each other for eg. After all, the true PvP'ers (not the parasites) are simply doing the job of mobs and enhancing the danger of being intelligent agents with their own motives. :)
If you are "ganked" then your player then has access to apply the in-game solution to that behavior so it is not rewarding for the ganker, which I think is a form of indirect pvp! Conversely someone who pvp's you for logical reasons, you learn as a player why the conflict took place and that learning is really rich part of the game, made more consequential and significant if you have something to lose. So again even negative feedback on your experience should still be interesting and learning something about the game, not just about combat effectiveness being win or failure.
It's possible that learning the pvp skills then going out to expose to that sort of potential loss would help make people more confident. But I think learning a part of the game should not be divorced from the authentic experience that it's supposed to be attached to. Bandits and Bounty-Hunters will improve at PvP from taking higher risks and surmounting those and the reward for that is experience at pvp -> better combat effectiveness in those situations. It's comparative to someone who learns to craft by specializing in that area of gameplay. For the crafter it might be a lot of grinding vs a lot of death penalty?
To sum maybe there is good reason for intro-pvp area (I'm being to philosophical, not practical perhaps?), but I see the ethos of the game as keeping the whole game connected and using those connections in game to solve problems ie mentoring* from a bounty-hunter to improve at pvp if you wish? IE for every problem there should be many in-game solutions to serve that problem without recourse to chopping the game into sections within sections?
*An alternative is learning combat skills through PvE content which should be enough preparation for iniitial PvP?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally kind of think there is only two good ways to do open world PVP in a sandbox environment.
1. Guarded areas with low risk, low rewards, and entirely lawless areas with massive risk massive rewards.
2. Total anarchy everywhere.
One thing I should be clear to mention is when I say total anarchy I mean as far as the admins are concerned. Players should feel free to establish player-enforced order. That is what I intend to do.
The point of it though, if you have PVP and non-PVP areas with semi-similar reward levels it will lead to prosperous orderly kingdoms being built in the safe areas, and poverty stricken PVP areas filled with violence, constantly being raided by the prosperous kingdoms based in the safe areas.
If you want a sandbox where players can build as they want with real politics where kingdoms can rise and fall... this game pretty much needs to be the wild west.
Goblinworks Founder
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I am not in favour of a newbie PvP area that is locked. Funcom did this with Age of Conan; While I considered Underhalls and Whitesands some of the most fun PvP I have experienced in an MMO, all it did was allow players to hang around it at maximum level possible and farm the new guys.
I agree with Andius that it needs to be all or nothing. High Sec/Low Risk/Low Reward on one end of the scale and FFA/High Risk/High Reward on the other end of the scale.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I myself am in favor of the idea of a newbie island or something along those lines, where you learn the basics and rules before taking the 1 way trip into the real world of the game, and it makes perfect sense that PVP is a topic that should be covered in said training, though I have no real clue how to do it reasonably where it can't wind up as a road block if no one else is doing the quest at the time etc...
Well, one way to do it could be: at the end of the tutorial the character gets told that there's PvP out there, and the limitations/rules. And they get a challenge/quest to engage in PvP outside the safe areas. The quest reward is something useful: say a merit badge that unlocks a particular armor or other protected equipment slot. The merit badge is awarded either when you kill someone in PvP (must land the killing blow) or when you die in PvP, whichever comes first.
So to unlock the armor slot, some people will just rush out to the edge of the safe zone and kill each other in pairs. But if someone skips that and some time later gets killed by another player - bingo, quest completed, you got a merit badge, a small reward even if you got killed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, one way to do it could be: at the end of the tutorial the character gets told that there's PvP out there, and the limitations/rules. And they get a challenge/quest to engage in PvP outside the safe areas. The quest reward is something useful: say a merit badge that unlocks a particular armor or other protected equipment slot. The merit badge is awarded either when you kill someone in PvP (must land the killing blow) or when you die in PvP, whichever comes first.So to unlock the armor slot, some people will just rush out to the edge of the safe zone and kill each other in pairs. But if someone skips that and some time later gets killed by another player - bingo, quest completed, you got a merit badge, a small reward even if you got killed.
While I am not entirely opposed to PvP, I think making it mandatory to gain a full item slot list is a bit too much. I think a quest to go check in with the Law Enforcement Entity (whatever they are) to get a rundown on how PvP works and when and where it is allowed is enough.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I am not entirely opposed to PvP, I think making it mandatory to gain a full item slot list is a bit too much. I think a quest to go check in with the Law Enforcement Entity (whatever they are) to get a rundown on how PvP works and when and where it is allowed is enough.
Well, one way to do it could be: at the end of the tutorial the character gets told that there's PvP out there, and the limitations/rules. And they get a challenge/quest to engage in PvP outside the safe areas. The quest reward is something useful: say a merit badge that unlocks a particular armor or other protected equipment slot. The merit badge is awarded either when you kill someone in PvP (must land the killing blow) or when you die in PvP, whichever comes first.So to unlock the armor slot, some people will just rush out to the edge of the safe zone and kill each other in pairs. But if someone skips that and some time later gets killed by another player - bingo, quest completed, you got a merit badge, a small reward even if you got killed.
Yes, a method which is just a part of the game world that you use your own initiative to enquire about fits a sandbox world better imo. For example a theme park game board would be broken down into tutorial zone for new player (this way please!) & zones and in-game announcements "you are now entering pvp zone", "an event is happening nearby to you" etc. No wonder it is theme park - the health & safety rules will pinned up everywhere: "Warning Dragons are Dangerous." etc I think it's better if the world retains mystery and players need to find out how things work, talk to the local militia or whatever to find out extent of rule of law etc or players eg bandits due North etc. Or head to a tavern for the local gossip etc?!
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Goblin Squad Member
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For me it's not so much that one is too care bear and the other brutal and I have to make a choice: The problem is for former I can hear the designer's conversation in my head about making everything so that they will maximise player numbers by ensuring no player has reason to be upset (designer's great fear & money man's), whereas on the other hand the devs have given Carte Blanche to a gank-fest: A lack of design vs over-design.
Hopefully GW can select seeding population that then feeds back on very loose design (doesn't constrict nor assume how players will want to interact too much) & see if player's own institutions can have a chance to grow and add effects where they are needed while retaining lawlessness and open pvp in increasing distance away from that; which also will ideally be dangerous in a PvE sense as well as a PvP sense: So a double dose of danger for those willing to challenge extremely. And a middle ground between the extemes where flux occurs. I think ideally an mmorpg always has danger on the horizon. It is not affecting you, you can seek it out or just remain aware of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I think it's better if the world retains mystery and players need to find out how things work, talk to the local militia or whatever to find out extent of rule of law etc or players eg bandits due North etc. Or head to a tavern for the local gossip etc?!
I don't want my hand held except in rp. =)
The main game is a sandbox, which really should limit the amount of NPC questing and hand-holding.
Even if the characters enter the game map by literally falling out of the back of a turnip cart, they have some understanding of the world. Things like the existence of alchemy, and what might be used in that craft. Or the basics of how to fight - the new character might be an incompetent fighter, but he's been in a fight or two.
Some of that basic knowledge of how the world works can be imparted in a tutorial. Does PvP need to be in the tutorial? As pointed out up-thread, that causes issues if there aren't multiple people running through the tutorial at a given time. While I'm not a big fan of PvP, if it's going to be a big part of the game world, they might as well encourage people to get into it early. If done early enough, the new character might not even have any inventory at risk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I think it's better if the world retains mystery and players need to find out how things work, talk to the local militia or whatever to find out extent of rule of law etc or players eg bandits due North etc. Or head to a tavern for the local gossip etc?!I don't want my hand held except in rp. =)The main game is a sandbox, which really should limit the amount of NPC questing and hand-holding.
Even if the characters enter the game map by literally falling out of the back of a turnip cart, they have some understanding of the world. Things like the existence of alchemy, and what might be used in that craft. Or the basics of how to fight - the new character might be an incompetent fighter, but he's been in a fight or two.
Some of that basic knowledge of how the world works can be imparted in a tutorial. Does PvP need to be in the tutorial? As pointed out up-thread, that causes issues if there aren't multiple people running through the tutorial at a given time. While I'm not a big fan of PvP, if it's going to be a big part of the game world, they might as well encourage people to get into it early. If done early enough, the new character might not even have any inventory at risk.
MMO's the "starter experience" usually is important and usually therefore gets tons of dev time, at least that is possibly because of the importance of the so-called "mmo mortgage" as well as making a decision to play a game for 6 months with potential further moneys spent on the game from the player's pov: They have to be impressed.
For PvP, maybe one step at a time is better approach (learn to walk before you run), namely a start for the mmorpg that allows the player to learn some basic controls of the game and I'd say most importantly who to go to for different choices of gameplay & help to help decide what direction to follow?
For PvP training and exposure, just should be visceral that it's dangerous and you can walk off that cliff on your own if you like or join some company/party and learn from some mentors and party-up for travel with the risk of pvp and fit in to aid as a role in a team with a common interest/safety in numbers?
Oc MMOs are really complicated for a new player/certainly new to the genre and such, so basic controls are important to get going and then let the player maybe experience what is possible with the gameplay with some examples of other players in some form?; so set a new player's sights instead of "training programme 0.3" ; namely show a summary of things possible and then let player move in a direction towards learning a particular aspect?
The ideal maybe is when the game grows player kingdoms start taking an interest in new players/fresh recruits/taxes!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Creating a tutorial introducing people to the concepts of PvP could be tricky. How many people just click through the dialog boxes when receiving quests from NPCs?
The line is letting people know what can happen, but not beat them so much over the head that they lose interest in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Creating a tutorial introducing people to the concepts of PvP could be tricky. How many people just click through the dialog boxes when receiving quests from NPCs?
The line is letting people know what can happen, but not beat them so much over the head that they lose interest in the game.
If someone wants to skip through the dialogue boxes/skip the tutorial entirely then let them. However I think a tutorial is a useful tool and I won't be answering their stupid questions as soon as its apparent they skipped the tutorial, even though I generally love answering questions. When a game throws you straight into it with nothing but perhaps a "Welcome to the game you can move using W,A,S,D" kind of thing it generally isn't a super positive experience. I know the first thing I always end up doing is figuring out the chat interface so I can ask questions and a lot of people are not too polite/even if they are it can be pretty time consuming to explain the entire game to a new player. I know I've spent hours of my time explaining simple things to people that should have been covered in a tutorial like how to cast spells in Darkfall. Not their fault that the game just threw them in there with little to no explanation.
A simple instanced tutorial that runs players through the basics of the game such as the basics of combat, character advancement, NPC/Object interaction, and crafting is a super useful tool that can save a player hours worth of blundering through the game figuring things out on their own. Granted some of the fun comes to figuring things out on your own but generally that's figuring out that if you mount a great sword blade to a 1-handed hilt you get a bastard sword, and not which button do I press to talk to this NPC, or open this chest.
I think a tutorial is just the kind of positive blend of theme-park and sandbox content I would like to see. However it should be designed to quickly run a player through the basics, if they choose to do the tutorial. It should be a 10-30 minute process, not some utopia free from the worries of PVP. Show them the ropes, then throw them out into the world.
Ideally I would hope that players are going to be encountering PVP-areas within their first hour or two of play, and that after their first week 90-100% of their play-time is spent in PVP areas unless they are hanging out in newb towns to recruit for their company or show people the ropes.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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EVE has that introduction experience, they call it factional warfare and is a great way for new players to "dip their toe". However, in a sandbox game, there is no concept of a no pvp zone, there is just a concequence for it, and the game is better for it.
Except for those areas where PvP is not possible according to the programming rules. In non-PvP areas, other players are simply immune from all effects of your attacks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However it should be designed to quickly run a player through the basics, if they choose to do the tutorial. It should be a 10-30 minute process, not some utopia free from the worries of PVP. Show them the ropes, then throw them out into the world.
This made me think of a tutorial with a prominent countdown clock, showing how much time was left before you would be booted out into the hard world. Learn what you think is important, because you've got 30 minutes. You can leave early if you want, but 30 minutes is all you get.
It probably would make things a bit tense. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, due to the skill system, the idea that a player does not have a chance is much more alien. The difference between vets and newbies is much more narrow than it is in nearly every game out there as there are no concepts of levels. If PvP is going to feature in an MMO, then the idea of levels must be put aside, otherwise it just results in a race for cap before people start to even think about playing the game
They've touched on this in the blogs so ideally it will be similar.
EVE has that introduction experience, they call it factional warfare and is a great way for new players to "dip their toe". However, in a sandbox game, there is no concept of a no pvp zone, there is just a concequence for it, and the game is better for it.
I'm hoping with the narrow difference above, just leads to players looking for the right character/party to get things done, eg in this case join up for some even-odds pvp/task to complete involving such.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EVE has that introduction experience, they call it factional warfare and is a great way for new players to "dip their toe". However, in a sandbox game, there is no concept of a no pvp zone, there is just a concequence for it, and the game is better for it.
I'm hoping with the narrow difference above, just leads to players looking for the right character/party to get things done, eg in this case join up for some even-odds pvp/task to complete involving such.Most of the people I know would say, if the odds are even, you did something wrong :)
I get what you're saying, but ultimately mechanics really can't make up for player choice. Wonder solo into a bad area, expect lots of bad people to jump you. Have friends on standby when you do, and the tables can quickly be turned. But, thats player choice, a game should not defend you from that.
Yes, I agree my point, even-odds perhaps was ill-chosen; didn't mean balanced. I mean join up with a party who are going to make those right choices for new players. I agree balancing combat mechanics is not so high up the list depending on the type of engagement. And ideally community is the proximate (& ultimate) resource for anyone wanting to dip their toe in pvp. Hopefully this will be a mmorpg where other players are the best resource. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wow, lots of great feedback here!
Obviously, it's going to be impossible to come up with a solution that makes everyone happy, but what about something like this:
Imagine there are three different starter towns situated roughly at points of a triangle: Alphaville, Bravotown, and Charlieburg. Each of the towns is in competition with each other. Outside of that approximate triangle is the rough wilderness but inside that triangle is kind of a starter area where folks from the different towns can interact, compete, share content, create content for each other, and generally get used to how things work. This would be a high-security area where town guard reprisals against PvP engagement would be swift and severe.
Now, imagine that there is some central structure that, when controlled by one of the three starting towns, can impart some benefit to those who come from that town. The benefit would only be imparted within the confines of the triangle.
As part of the "New Player Experience", the customer might be told about the benefits of controlling the structure and thus the starter area and be asked if they would like to join the struggle. All appropriate warning about the dangers of doing so would be provided, obviously.
If they decide to join in the struggle for control, they can contribute via economic, social, military, or other means and doing so flags them for being fair game in PvP within that starter area. The guards will not interfere with or retaliate against PvP engagement.
Regarding methods to prevent the starter area from becoming a griefing playground by more advanced characters, that's a little bit tricky. Perhaps a skill point cap could be set such that when a character reaches X points devoted to any skill tree, they receive a warning that they will no longer be eligible to join in the struggle for control of the starter area. If they exceed that point cap, their flag is disabled and any further contributions to the starter-area struggle, whether those contributions be through combat, economics, or whatever, would be met by reprisals from the guards. The warnings could even include gentle guidance to the non-starter areas so players could utilize those valuable skills out in the wilderness areas where they are really needed.
Obviously, there are a lot of incomplete details such as:
- Layout of starter area (doesn't have to be a triangle)
- Nature of structure (tower, dungeon, fortress, gazebo, whatever)
- Method(s) of obtaining control
- Anti-griefing skill point cap
As a general idea though, I'd love to get your feedback and your suggestions for some of those incomplete details.
--
Shannon
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
- Mahatma Gandhi
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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ArchAnjel:
Aside from being too contrived and lacking verisimilitude, that's a decent way. I would limit participation by successes, rather than anything else: Once you contribute to n different victories, or get x kills, you are expelled.
Although frankly, I'd rather have no training area than have one so contrived.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Imagine there are three different starter towns situated roughly at points of a triangle
This would be a high-security area where town guard reprisals against PvP engagement would be swift and severe.
As part of the "New Player Experience"
Regarding methods to prevent the starter area from becoming a griefing playground by more advanced characters, that's a little bit tricky.
Perhaps I'm being idealistic, but, RE: "New Player Experience": I much prefer the for eg, DayZ approach: You and some starter gear and you're on your own: There's no welcoming party! Go discover, be careful and be resourceful. None of this "Welcome to this world, you can do this, I am your guide, please exit through the gift shop" etc.
I think the intial NPC starter areas will be (practically) immune from ganking to begin with so that's covered. And it's up to players to go beyond that zone as they see fit maybe. Again those loud-speaker messages "warning vehicle reversing" /"entering pvp zone" seem to me just too blunt. They should be information by talking to NPCs, or such that expect bandits past the city walls or so on.. you might even see some action if you are lucky as the city guards make after some bandits who just did someone in, in front of you as you peer beyond the city walls at some commotion or other *lesson learnt*!
Effectively a virtual world with action and reaction and consequence instead of hard rules left right and center? And it's best to set up that expectation from the off?
Afterall if there is a batch approach to new players, may enable more manageable input from community of current players to those new players? I hope so. It's hard to reconcile that some new players will need all the inputs available atst as personal preference that I'm just another travelling stranger turning up in a strange new place and that's the beginning of your story from that moment onwards.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea of PFO is that there are no Levels and that a new PC can basically play with an old PC after just a few weeks.
Also per account the training is spread between all (active) chars.
This means there is not much twinking going on and from the start everyone will progress at the same pace.
So it will not happen that, as in DAoC, a year into the game vast differences in power between most of the PCs occur.
Also PFO will have heavy player interaction and player driven content. That means it is counter intuitive to do a lot of content where only "young" PCs can enter.
That said there will be measures taken that grieving of new PCs will be minimized or straight out impossible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Imo, easing players into non-consensual PvP is often hazardous as having your hand held prior to engaging in what can be a lawless world; it can often be a blessing having that offered to you quite early to set the correct tone of what to expect.
While completely true, I do think that not easing can be equally hazardous. A player not being eased in also has a high chance of say wandering into an ambush in which he is massively out-manned and outgunned 2 seconds into a fight and immediately jumping to the conclusion that until he is a perfect character he shouldn't even consider ever returning to such an area. I know of a few people who more or less immediately quit eve after being ganked once because they immediately jumped to the conclusion that the 1 time they were killed was the norm, even if what they ran into was a 1 in 100 situation.
Kind of goes into the no second chance to make a first impression.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While completely true, I do think that not easing can be equally hazardous. A player not being eased in also has a high chance of say wandering into an ambush in which he is massively out-manned and outgunned 2 seconds into a fight and immediately jumping to the conclusion that until he is a perfect character he shouldn't even consider ever returning to such an area. I know of a few people who more or less immediately quit eve after being ganked once because they immediately jumped to the conclusion that the 1 time they were killed was the norm, even if what they ran into was a 1 in 100 situation.
Kind of goes into the no second chance to make a first impression.
This is quite true. People nowadays, IMHO, would be hesitant to play further if they get beat up 10 minutes into the game. Too many memories of being ganked in games like WOW. They remember how that kinda muted their enjoyment of WOW, so they figure it would be the same thing here.
Now, obviously, GW is not going to take PvP out of PFO. It would be nice if they could find a way to get the message across to people that while so and so may have been in the game for a year and you are new, your power levels are really quite similar. (That last sentence is according to what I believe GW is going for according to blog posts)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it would be a good idea to have a completely seperate shard/instance which covered a small town and maybe a little bit of wilderness which essentialy functions as a "Tutorial Area" for learning the basics of gameplay (including PvP but also PvE and other more basic commands, like movement, communication, using skills, searching, crafting, etc..). Some of that area would be completely PvP "safe" (no attacking other players allowed) while the rest would allow for PvP
The area would be completely OOC, meaning no need to deal with immersion. It would also have a complete seperate character database which would be subject to periodic character wipes/resets. No tie or transfer between your character in this area and the regular game world.
The area would serve to provide new players a "safe" and consequence free place to learn the basic mechanics of the game. It could also provide existing players a "safe" and consequence free area to experiment with new mechanics or systems/rules as they were introduced to the game in future development release. Kinda like a permanent public beta-testing server.
WWII-Online had something similar and I thought it was quite usefull. The idea here is not that the area is some sort of "Themepark" start to the game. It's just a sort of interactive game manual, that gives people an opportunity to figure out the GUI, commands and basic mechanics of playing the game....including the basics of how combat works before being thrown into the deep end of the pool where the sharks are swimming and thier actions can have serious consequences to thier characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SHAMELESS PLUG WARNING!!!!:
I think the solution lies as much in the players as it does any mechanic. To which end I have created the Great Legionnaires. In the one server on the one game that we were there almost right from the beginning that server enjoyed a very low amount of new player griefing despite the fact you could be attacked form the moment you launched your ship into the gameworld.
I think the one of the biggest problems with games such as Darkfall, and Mortal is that if you join those games there are no old and well established dedicated newb help and anti-griefer movements. There are alliances that are full of good people and fairly honorable but most of these alliances are more concerned with expanding their own territory and power then ensuring the game is friendly to new players as is evident by the fact that they never make patrols of newblands. SWARM were pretty decent guys in Darkfall yet you rarely saw them in starter areas hunting GPS, and KoTO were pretty decent guys in Mortal yet you rarely saw them running ENVY away from Fabernum. You only see that being done by individual players and fairly small/new clans.
Partially this is due to the fact the most games discourage older players from hanging out in areas meant for new players unless all they are concerned about is packing their K/D ratio with easy kills or getting laughs out of making people rage and quit the game.
I think the best approach is twofold.
On the developers end they need to give rewards to older players for frequenting areas meant for new players and helping/protecting them. The bounty system is a good step in that direction but I don't think it will work own its own because new players can't afford to post big bounties. Another good step is things for older players to do in those areas other then grief newbs. Perhaps high level dungeons in the PVP areas outside the starter towns that you can't access if you have a bounty on your head. Or also cheaper maintenance of towers and forts as long as those buildings are set to players that are marked as unlawful and owned by players who are considered lawful to encourage lawful clans to establish a foothold near starter areas. Lower cost required to hire commoners encouraging older companies to put their production facilities there. You could make higher maintenance fees on towers and hideouts near the starter areas if they are owned by unlawful players discourage griefers as well.
On the player end, people need to actively fight for the kind of community they want to play in. If you don't like getting slaughtered by a gang of older players every time you step foot out of a starter town as a newb, remember that. Come back to those starter towns later on when you are stronger to help make sure it doesn't happen to others. Join a company like the Great Legionnaires or make your own. Support companies like them. Adopt anti-griefing policies in your own. Not just "Griefers are bad and we'll kill them if they come out into our territory... just like any other non-allied player." but actively take part in wars against companies known to have ties to griefers, and actually go back to starter areas not just to recruit, but also to protect.
If we do these kinds of things then we won't NEED big restrictive features programmed into the game meant to hold players hands and make sure nobody scuffs a knee. We can just let players adjust into a PVP world by exposing them to it in a manner more reasonable than "Welcome to the game. Here's 20 veterans who would like to kill you and 2 willing to help you."
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Goblin Squad Member
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While completely true, I do think that not easing can be equally hazardous. A player not being eased in also has a high chance of say wandering into an ambush in which he is massively out-manned and outgunned 2 seconds into a fight and immediately jumping to the conclusion that until he is a perfect character he shouldn't even consider ever returning to such an area. I know of a few people who more or less immediately quit eve after being ganked once because they immediately jumped to the conclusion that the 1 time they were killed was the norm, even if what they ran into was a 1 in 100 situation.
Kind of goes into the no second chance to make a first impression.
This is quite true. People nowadays, IMHO, would be hesitant to play further if they get beat up 10 minutes into the game. Too many memories of being ganked in games like WOW. They remember how that kinda muted their enjoyment of WOW, so they figure it would be the same thing here.
Now, obviously, GW is not going to take PvP out of PFO. It would be nice if they could find a way to get the message across to people that while so and so may have been in the game for a year and you are new, your power levels are really quite similar. (That last sentence is according to what I believe GW is going for according to blog posts)
This is not a symptom of players not being eased into PvP properly, it is simply poor game design. WoW griefing was simply that, griefing. The game was railroaded enough for Blizzard to have implement far harsher penalties for level 60s clearing out low levels in STV just because they were bored.
Sandbox open PvP games come, by nature, with risk. Losing gear, losing experience, losing time through the downtime associated with death; we don't know the mechanics which will be present in PFO yet, but what I do know is that allowing someone an easier ride at earlier levels will not change their aptitude for being grief killed because this will happen from the day you start till the day you quit.
Being 60 in Wow and defending against 60's ganking you seemed like fair game; note you don't lose anything when you die. In sandbox pvp games, you lose something of worth be it tangible worth or a loss of time applied; this applies in every situation you may be level 20 and succumb to a group of player killers to which you had no chance of victory or escape. You may be mining and get killed simply for the 30 ingots you're carrying, or lose the 5% skill you just gained, or be sent back 30 minutes away from where you'd just explored. Protecting against early game PvP is protecting against early game grief; this is a design flaw or the unwanted fat of themepark MMORPGs who still don't know how to implement open world pvp.
I know I'm speculating a great deal towards the loss one might encounter from death, I'm just saying that poor PvP/grief mechanics are ignorantly designed into games. If the game is well made in this department, PvP could be possible outside the first starter village and the community would make the world a safe place to be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regardless of the consequences of PvP, this information still needs to be conveyed to the player at the beginning.
"PFO will not be the typical themepark experience you have had before" type statement.
It may be true you could get beat up 5 minutes into the game. Also know that such and such consequences happen after the fight. Let people know you have a chance at item loss. This will encourage people to travel with only items they are OK with losing.
People should be made aware of the bounty system that is in place. High sec, low sec, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea of PFO is that there are no Levels
That is not what they've said. They've said they're trying to approach character development in a different way, but to minimalize it into "there are no Levels" is just plain off.
From the blog:Like class levels in the tabletop game, there will be 20 of these rewards available for each class type, creating a way to simulate a 20-level progression within our unique system.
So they're not going to be officially called levels, and will work differently, but reading as no levels, and everyone will progress at the same pace, and the rest of your statements...That's fine if that's what you want, but let's keep the distinction of want and citing what GW have actually said clear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Creating a way to simulate level progression" means there are no levels because if you had levels you didn't need to simulate a progression through them.
This is something you only need to do if you actually have NO levels.
Also it would help you if you mattered to look into Eve, which Mr RD said is a role model for PFO. Then you would know where I get my assumptions about how PFO will work in regards to character progression and not having levels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea of PFO is that there are no LevelsThat is not what they've said. They've said they're trying to approach character development in a different way, but to minimalize it into "there are no Levels" is just plain off.
From the blog:Like class levels in the tabletop game, there will be 20 of these rewards available for each class type, creating a way to simulate a 20-level progression within our unique system.So they're not going to be officially called levels, and will work differently, but reading as no levels, and everyone will progress at the same pace, and the rest of your statements...That's fine if that's what you want, but let's keep the distinction of want and citing what GW have actually said clear.
This post by Ryan Dancey tries to illustrate levels a bit more:
Hopefully it seems just as likely that new players will go into lawless areas and pvp other new players just as much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They've referred Eve as a reference, not as a "role model". And it's not you saying there are no levels that I disagree with, but the sense that there is no relevant difference between new and older players.
I personally asked on these very forums if their comment about "no levels" meant no progression of spell damage as a character increases, or no increase in hitpoints, and Ryan has confirmed that is not so. There will be many of the scaling mechanics that go hand in hand with "levels".
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be many of the scaling mechanics that go hand in hand with "levels".
But that scaling will not be anything like it is in other "level-based" MMOs.
Vic Wertz stated somewhere (I can't find it right now) that their intent is that a character with 10 Merit Badges will not be significantly less powerful than a character with 30 Merit Badges.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree, it would be good if the scaling change over levels is very minimal in a 1-dimensional change. ie like for like. But I think Ryan Dancey said in another post: Efficiency vs Ability in selecting skills so some configurations even a lower player might be "fitted" to give a high level player some real problems in pvp combat?
This is what I'm hoping as well as levels being allowing more scope to choose more abilities or efficiency in one direction eg shooting a bow proficiency: "Distance, Power, Accuracy, Rate" & fire and move etc.
But to avoid: as
-snip
This means there is not much twinking going on and from the start everyone will progress at the same pace.So it will not happen that, as in DAoC, a year into the game vast differences in power between most of the PCs occur.
Also PFO will have heavy player interaction and player driven content. That means it is counter intuitive to do a lot of content where only "young" PCs can enter.-snip-
says, is a good result: Remove twinking, reduce ridiculous power differences to point where they may not be even but can still be comparable.
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Goblinworks Founder
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Grumpymel made a good point of an OOC tutorial which I think has merit. If the tutorial were completely separate from the sandbox in similar fashion to that of a single player RTS. Being completely optional so people aren't forced into a tutorial if they prefer the "fall off the back of a turnip cart" introduction. I personally see no need for it if people are introduced to pvp through low sec/high sec zones