Say a ranger manages to somehow obtain all of the feats on his combat style list by level 10. (Don't worry about how.) What happens when he gets to level 14?
I will abstain from giving my own answer until others have responded.
You can gain a duplicate feat, I guess.
Care to expound on this "duplicate feat?" Do you mean taking the same feat more than once?
RAW, you're screwed.
RA-any-reasonable-DM-would-follow, you'd be able to just pick new feats or "retrain" your general feats slots spent on the combat style feats for other feats as you pick them up as combat style feats.
You are out of luck just like if a sorcerer choose a free bonus spell ahead of time. That is RAW and RAI. I will add however that being allowed to pick another feat in its place should not be an issue power wise.
Sounds like that'll be what most folks say. I agree.
You are out of luck just like if a sorcerer choose a free bonus spell ahead of time. That is RAW and RAI. I will add however that being allowed to pick another feat in its place should not be an issue power wise.
EDIT: And for main topic - I would allow retraining existing feats in such circumstances. The same i'd do for already known feats that are granted as fixed bonus feats: for example Ranger who took Endurance at 1st level could retrain it when reaching 3rd level.
I am not dealing with it. It's a hypothetical situation.
I suppose if you multiclass fighter and ranger as a human, you could achieve this, though.
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::Geshko casts raise thread!::
I'm in a similar pickle now... But this is for PFS, so DM fiat is not an option.
My Lore Warden fighter took Combat Expertise(fighter bonus) and Butterfly Sting(general feat) at 1st level.
At second level, he gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat in place of the Bravery class feature, and the normal bonus feat (let's say Weapon Finesse) at 2nd level.
Can he immediately retrain that first Combat Expertise into another Combat feat? Or does he wait for another two levels with a dead feat slot until the 4th level of fighter allows him to retrain?
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Rogues have the same problem: muddle through first level without Weapon Finesse, or lose out on one of the only decent Rogue Talents.
Really, all of these bonus feats that become available after the actual feat are pretty stupid, since they require the user to wait longer than everyone else to take that feat, even though the fact that it's a bonus feat for them suggests that they should have an affinity for it. Anyone can take Bashing Finish at +11 BAB... but if a sword-and-shield-style Ranger doesn't want to be screwed in the long term, they need to hold off on it until level 18 just to avoid permanently losing a feat for no good reason. Likewise, Sorcerers need to learn their bloodline-specific bonus spells a level later than sorcerers of any other bloodline. You'd think the Fire Elemental Bloodline that grants Burning Hands as a bonus feat would make it easy to learn Burning Hands, but instead, it makes it harder and slower.
The only place in Pathfinder that I know offers an alternative is the Gendarme archetype for the Cavalier. Coincidentally, another Cavalier archetype, Huntmaster, has one of the most obnoxious delays: it grants Step Up And Strike at 18th level, which normally becomes available at 6th level, and doesn't offer even a single alternate option.
Naturally, this forces players to plan their feats several levels in advance to avoid being permanently crippled in the future... at which point the GM objects to them being a munchkin and ruining his precious organic campaign because only characters-not-builds are allowed at this table. Or, if you don't plan ahead and permanently lose a few feats as a result, it's your own fault because *PLAYER SKILL* and obviously you shouldn't have so greedily wanted to be effective in both the short-term and the long-term because thematically becoming good quickly at the thing your class says you become good at should make you permanently weaker in the future because
Rogues have the same problem: muddle through first level without Weapon Finesse, or lose out on one of the only decent Rogue Talents.
Just to point out, Weapon Finesse doesn't have the 'BaB +1' prerequisite anymore (since the CRB came out, actually).
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
Other than that, I concur. Gaining bonus Feats and/or bonus Spells later than 'generic' martials or 'generic' casters is definitely one of the faults of the system. Which can (and should) be definitely house-ruled, but for PFS you crippled yourself for nothing.
Rogues have the same problem: muddle through first level without Weapon Finesse, or lose out on one of the only decent Rogue Talents.
Just to point out, Weapon Finesse doesn't have the 'BaB +1' prerequisite anymore (since the CRB came out, actually).
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
You could take weapon finesse at first level. OR you could wait and take it as a rogue talent.
Choosing it as a feat means that you're wasting a feat and have to pick up something else as a rogue talent, just so you can get it at 1st level. It really is one of the best rogue talents. Or you could suck at 1st level and wait to pick it up as a rogue talent, but at least you would be able to spend the feat on something else that could help your character.
Just to point out, Weapon Finesse doesn't have the 'BaB +1' prerequisite anymore (since the CRB came out, actually).
Did you forget which thread you were posting in?
You could take it as a feat at first level... or you could take it as a talent at second level. Since talents are usually far worse than feats and Finesse Rogue is one of the best talents, you really want to spend a talent instead of a feat on Weapon Finesse; otherwise, you're hurting yourself on the long term by replacing one of your precious feats with a lousy talent. But since you don't get a talent until second level, taking Finesse Rogue means muddling through first level without Weapon Finesse, which is a pretty severe drawback.
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After your 3rd XP merely retrain him for different feats at 1st level... get the bonus combat expertise at 2nd level, and pick up butterfly sting as the fighter bonus.
Unfortunately, Butterfly Sting is not a valid Fighter Bonus Feat, as it has the (Critical) tag, not the (Combat) tag.
So my options are:1st level retrain to other feats, wait for 3rd level and take Butterfly Sting then(Silly that a character would somehow forget how to pass criticals)
*or*
Suffer with a dead feat slot until Fighter 4.
Isn't there a rule somewhere saying if you get a feat you already have, you can choose another feat you meet the prerequisites for?