So I'm about to start playing in a campaign as a Gnome Wizard (Enchanter) and I'm debating right now on going into the Arcane Trickster prestige class. My character is a sort of "the face" and I was thinking about the Arcane Trickster because it would save me from spending my first level feat on Cosmopolitan (for Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills) and it would also give me some nifty abilities as well as more skill points (which I enjoy). The question I was having was should I take all my levels in Wizard first followed by three levels of Rogue (Charlatan) or should I take three levels of Rogue first? Or should I take a level in Wizard and then three levels in Rogue? I don't multiclass very often which is why I was asking. Thanks in advanced.
There are 2 guides out right now for AT, but if you don't want to go through them, my suggestion is to start off as a rogue (for the extra HP), and to take the Magical Knack Trait to offset the caster level penalty for having levels in a nonspellcasting class (Rogue)
I actually imagine my character as caster first and Rogue second. I'm mainly using the Arcane Trickster as a way to make my character sneakier when he casts spells or does something underhanded rather than a way to hit people with a spell and deal sneak attack damage. I'm thinking I might go Wizard (Enchanter) 1/Rogue (Charlatan) 3/Wizard 2/Aracne Trickster or as Majestic8705 said just hopping back and forth between Wizard and Rogue until I have three levels of each. The extra skill points would likely fill in skills I couldn't max out or put ranks in skills I'd have liked to have had ranks in (such as Disable Device and Sleight of Hand).
Just to mention it: You could also go rogue 1 / alchemist (vivisectionist 1) / wizard xx. This would open up alchemist stuff, give you a lot of feats, everything runs of intelligence, a boost to saves, and you can completely offset the caster level drop with magical knack. You lose a few skill points and a BAB for that, though.
Just to mention it: You could also go rogue 1 / alchemist (vivisectionist 1) / wizard xx. This would open up alchemist stuff, give you a lot of feats, everything runs of intelligence, a boost to saves, and you can completely offset the caster level drop with magical knack. You lose a few skill points and a BAB for that, though.
That's very true but I want the third level ability from the Charlatan variant.
Just to mention it: You could also go rogue 1 / alchemist (vivisectionist 1) / wizard xx. This would open up alchemist stuff, give you a lot of feats, everything runs of intelligence, a boost to saves, and you can completely offset the caster level drop with magical knack. You lose a few skill points and a BAB for that, though.
Doesn't work:
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
Nice idea though -- assassin could work with it though, as could inner sea pirate.
The question I was having was should I take all my levels in Wizard first followed by three levels of Rogue (Charlatan) or should I take three levels of Rogue first? Or should I take a level in Wizard and then three levels in Rogue? I don't multiclass very often which is why I was asking. Thanks in advanced.
Starting in rogue will give you 2 more hit points than starting in wizard. That's the main advantage. After that, you get 2 more d8, and the rest of your dice will be d6s, however you mix it up, if you're going with the trickster class.
If you're multiclassing, starting in the class with the biggest hit die is always to your advantage, mechanically, since characters (in most games, anyway) start at max hp. Rogues also start out with more money than wizards, too.
For me what comes first depends entirely on what type of arcane trickster you are playing.
If you are going for the Intelligence synergy of wizard/vivisectionist/AT then you can't go wrong leading off with either. Typically I would take the other at second level (when the huge spread of first level abilities is most useful) and then finish wizard followed by alchemist.
If I'm doing a sorcerer/ninja, I'm more likely to go ninja/ninja/sorcerer or sorcerer/ninja/ninja. That way I get to my inviso-sneak attack faster and have something to do with my ninja ki before hand (another attack with a full attack).
If I'm going wizard/rogue (or magus/rogue) I'll typically start with the caster levels -- this is because it gets me my spellbook for free (something some GM's will decide to charge for) and it avoids the, "wait how did you suddenly become a wizard with familiar and spellbook in the middle of nowhere" 'problem'.
(I just added this into my guide as well as it's something I think I should probably cover).
How your trickster became a trickster is a roleplay issue between you and your GM. You need her permission to play a PrC in the first place, so talk to her before you go making one, and figure out how you want to play it. Starting in your d8 class is the best option, mechanically (and financially) speaking.
How your trickster became a trickster is a roleplay issue between you and your GM. You need her permission to play a PrC in the first place, so talk to her before you go making one, and figure out how you want to play it. Starting in your d8 class is the best option, mechanically (and financially) speaking.
Well I should probably mention that this is not a Pathfinder society game so we could be rolling our first level HP so I'm not gaurenteed two extra hit points, although I am pretty sure we'll get max HP at first level. We did roll our ability scores however and I have a 16 Constitution so my HP is actually not too bad for a Wizard.
My character is also going to be a Wizard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster and I was actually thinking what Abraham spalding had mentioned about just randomly obtaining a spell book and familiar (well, bonded item in my case). So I may do the Wizard 1/Rogue (Charlatan) 3/Wizard 2 or bounce back and forth.
Out of curiosity, if I have my level in Wizard but don't put ranks in skills that would be Wizard class skills, then take a level in Rogue and put a rank in one of those skills, do I gain the favored class bonus to that skill? For example, I take my level in Wizard and all Knowledge skills are class skills but I put no rank in Knowledge (planes) then I take a level in Rogue and put a rank in Knowledge (planes) do I gain the favored class bonus? Or do I need a level in another class that has it as a class skill before I gain that bonus? Sorry if that's a dumb question, like I said, I don't multiclass very often (this is the first time I have since 3.5).
As long as you end up with a rank in the skill and its a class skill for one of your classes you'll get the class bonus.
As long as you end up with a rank in the skill and its a class skill for one of your classes you'll get the class bonus.
That's what I'd thought but I just wanted to be sure. I think I'm going to start off with a level of Wizard and then take a level of Rogue and just kind of play it by ear after that until I can get into the Trickster.
On another note, I won't be playing this but I discovered a pretty scary build for the Arcane Trickster last night while looking at my options. A Wizard (Diviner) 3/Rogue (Bandit) 4/Arcane Trickster and then you take the Underhand talent and the talent that treats all enemies as flat-footed in the surprise round. Then you take Deceitful, Quick Draw, and Betrayer for your fears. Essentially you can always act in the surprise round and you'll always be able to deal max sneak attack damage to anyone you attack with a concealed weapon in said surprise round. Stacking Knife Master makes the hits more deadly as well. However, my character is going more for the talkative side of things and is a Enchanter/Charlatan.
Yeah... surprise rounds aren't that common honestly. Also the AT has a pretty poor BAB and isn't likely to really focus on weapons... you are almost always better off with attacking with a spell.
Finally you are talking about 2 talents and 3 feats for a situation that *might* come up once a day. That's a really heavy investment for a very iffy pay out.
Yeah... surprise rounds aren't that common honestly. Also the AT has a pretty poor BAB and isn't likely to really focus on weapons... you are almost always better off with attacking with a spell.
Finally you are talking about 2 talents and 3 feats for a situation that *might* come up once a day. That's a really heavy investment for a very iffy pay out.
That's why I'm not playing it, I see it as more of something I'd use as an NPC when I was DMing. It's also probably better as just a Rogue with a level dip of Diviner for the "I always act in the surprise round" feature. The scary part about it is when you use Betrayer to initiate the surprise round and get two sneak attacks off that deal maximum damage. I've considered playing the Rogue part in my friends Pathfinder-ized Oriental Adventures games and surprise Iaijutsu-ing people in half that make my sociopath Scorpion Clan character upset.
Realized I need a little more advice on the Trickster. As I am playing an Enchanter, what are good choices for my opposition schools? I was thinking Evocation for one but I honestly don't know what I should choose for the second school. I had originally considered Necromancy but being an Arcane Trickster, I might need some more spells with attack rolls so I'm not sure if that's a good choice now.
Drop divination. You can still cast them on off-days by spending 2 slots, many of them are "off-day" spells, like scrying or identifying items.
I'd also say drop abjuration. Someone else should be able to cover the resist energy, and you'll be hurting in CL and spell slots to be the party dispeller.
I suggest you read my guide to the trickster, and get an idea of what it can and can't do well. Abraham's guide is linked to that one, too, so you can read both.
I'd also say drop abjuration. Someone else should be able to cover the resist energy, and you'll be hurting in CL and spell slots to be the party dispeller.
I was thinking Abjuration. It has some useful spells but as you said, someone else can cover the resist energy (we have a Witch in the party) and I can always prepare a spell and take up two spell slots if I need something the only Abjuration spell I imagine I'll use some what often is Explosive Runes but that can be prepared as an off day spell seeing as how that would be more of something my character would do to political/social adversaries.
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Yeah... surprise rounds aren't that common honestly. Also the AT has a pretty poor BAB and isn't likely to really focus on weapons... you are almost always better off with attacking with a spell.
Finally you are talking about 2 talents and 3 feats for a situation that *might* come up once a day. That's a really heavy investment for a very iffy pay out.
Well, the thing about a Feat like Betrayer is it lets you *force* surprise rounds, so they'll come up much more often. But even then, this seems to me more like an NPC build or something that would be useful in a urban, RP-heavy adventures. In a standard adventuring setting, probably not that effective.
I think my AT will get most of the good of this from just taking Underhanded, but her weapon of choice is a Bladed Scarf, so the need for a concealed weapon is already taken care of.
...If you have a witch in the party why on earth are you making an enchanter? Why not something with a bit less overlap?