Flagbearer feat, Long spears and Banner of the Ancient Kings

[alex_c]

RAW it seems pretty clear that the bonuses for the Flagbearer feat only apply if you hold the flag in one hand. However the wondrous item Banner of the Ancient Kings which synergises with the Flagbearer feat also works if attached to a longspear...

My reading of this is that if a Bard has a longspear with the banner he'd gain +4 levels for inspire courage (a nice bonus for sure) but no bonuses from the Flagbearer feat because a longspear is a two handed weapon. Is my interpretation correct? If so is this RAI?

Flagbearer:

Benefit: As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag, members of that allegiance within 30 feet who can see the flag (including yourself ) gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against fear and charm effects. You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus. If the standard is taken by the enemy or destroyed, this bonus becomes a penalty, affecting all creatures that the bonus previously affected for 1 hour (or until you reclaim the lost flag).

Banner of the Ancient Kings:

This tattered white canvas banner looks like an old piece of sailcloth, or perhaps a winding shroud—a 4-foot-by-6-foot rectangle with loops that can fit over a spear haft or pole running up one side. If mounted on a longspear or pole at least 8 feet in length, the banner shifts in appearance to match the heraldry or coat of arms of the person who attached it. If that person has no device, the flag instead displays a device that echoes the owner’s personality (such as a favorite animal, favored weapon, or holy symbol of the wielder’s deity).

When carried into battle, a banner of the ancient kings confers several benefits. As long as the longspear or pole to which the banner is attached is firmly wielded in two hands, its carrier gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Initiative checks. In addition, when so wielded, it grants the wielder and all allies within 30 feet a +2 resistance bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects. If the carrier of the banner fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect, he may attempt a new saving throw against that effect every round he continues to wield the banner of the ancient kings—once he releases his firm grip on the banner’s haft, though, he no longer gets this benefit, even if he wields the banner properly at a later point while still under the effects of the mind-affecting effect.

If the banner’s carrier possesses the Flagbearer feat, the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat. A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level for the purposes of determining the bonuses granted by his inspire courage bardic performance ability.

[Umbranus]

With the Banner of the ancient Kings it seems to be a special case as it states that it works with flagbearer and that it has to be mounted on a twohanded weapon.
So the Bard with flagbearer and the banner of the ancient kings using inspire courage he would get both effects as far as they stack.

What I'd be interested in would be what happens if a phalanx fighter with flagbearer has a shield in one hand and a spear with a flag in the other hand (no banner of the ancient kings) would he get the bonus from flagbearer and still threaten?

If he attacks...
1) does he loose the bonus for the whole round?
2) does he only loose it for his own action but still confer it to his allies?
3) does he get it himself and confer it to his allies?

[Breiti]

The banner or Flagbearer feat is a bit purly worded. So here me try on RAI/RAW.

So assumptions first:
1. A Banner attached to a pole, lance or longspear counts as flag.
2. Carring a item in two hands counts as carrying the item in one hand.
(If a player does "more" to activate an item/effect than what is necessary to activate an item/effect he should not be punished for taking more efforts)

So the Banner of the Ancient Kings would give the following bonus as long as you carry the the pole or longspear it is attached to in one hand:

1. Doubles the morale bonuses granted by Flagbearer feat
2. +4 Levels for bard inspire courage

The banner gives some additional bonus as long as it is carried in both hands:

1. +4 circumstance bonus on Initiative checks
2. grants the wielder and all allies within 30 feet a +2 resistance bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects
3. Reroll save against mind-affecting effect

That's a ruling that works and that is RAW (at least if you include the assumptions above). RAW you should not even loose the bonus while attacking with the longspear but i am sure some GMs will rule it this way.

Breiti

P.S. If i could erata the Flagbearer feat it would say "You must hold the flag in at least one hand in order to grant this bonus"

[alex_c]

Thematically I love the idea of a flag on a longspear, heraldry was of great importance in the medieval times after all. I guess the worry I have is power creep of Inspire Courage optimization.

E.g. a lvl 8 bard with Extra Performance, Flagbearer, Master Performer, Grand Master Performer with a Banner of the Ancient Kings (affordable by WBL rules) would give the group +5 competence bonus from Inspire Courage and +2 morale bonus from the flag. Sure the flag doesn't stack with Heroism/Good Hope, but it's an outright win for the action economy.

Giving +7 to hit and damage at lvl 8 seems pretty game changing, TWF rogues would be happy for one thing! If the Flagbearer feat was deemed to work with longspears, that lvl 8 human bard could add Outflank and give the rogue +11 to hit - they could hardly miss.

[BltzKrg242]

What book is Flagbearer from? Sounds right up my Paladin's alley.

[Maezer]

Whats the source from Master Performer/Grand Master Performer?

[Maezer]

BltzKrg242 wrote:

What book is Flagbearer from? Sounds right up my Paladin's alley.

Inner sea world guide.

[doctor_wu]

Inner sea world guide.

[Breiti]

alex_c wrote:

Thematically I love the idea of a flag on a longspear, heraldry was of great importance in the medieval times after all. I guess the worry I have is power creep of Inspire Courage optimization.

E.g. a lvl 8 bard with Extra Performance, Flagbearer, Master Performer, Grand Master Performer with a Banner of the Ancient Kings (affordable by WBL rules) would give the group +5 competence bonus from Inspire Courage and +2 morale bonus from the flag. Sure the flag doesn't stack with Heroism/Good Hope, but it's an outright win for the action economy.

Giving +7 to hit and damage at lvl 8 seems pretty game changing, TWF rogues would be happy for one thing! If the Flagbearer feat was deemed to work with longspears, that lvl 8 human bard could add Outflank and give the rogue +11 to hit - they could hardly miss.

Master Performer, Grand Master Performer? Can you give a source?

As i get the numbers a bard with flagbearer would give a +5 attack + 5 damage (Flagbearer + Inspire Courage ). Sure this is powerfull but i think it will not break the game balance. It just makes the bard in a pure support roll playable.

Breiti

[alex_c]

Maezer wrote:

Whats the source from Master Performer/Grand Master Performer?

They're from the factions guide:

Master Performer

Grand Master Performer

[Umbranus]

alex_c wrote:

E.g. a lvl 8 bard with Extra Performance, Flagbearer, Master Performer, Grand Master Performer with a Banner of the Ancient Kings (affordable by WBL rules) would give the group +5 competence bonus from Inspire Courage and +2 morale bonus from the flag. Sure the flag doesn't stack with Heroism/Good Hope, but it's an outright win for the action economy.

Giving +7 to hit and damage at lvl 8 seems pretty game changing, TWF rogues would be happy for one thing!

So someone uses a class ability, 3 feats and a magic item that uses up a big chunk of his WBL to give his fellow PCs +7 to hit and damage and +5 to fear saves and you think that's overpowered? (I'm not counting extra performance because that just lets him do if for more turns per day)

I'd say depending on the party any one martial char can increase his own damage by similar number when using a class ability, 3 feats and an 18k GP magic item compared to the total increase in damage this char gets for the whole 4 man party.
It is good but not at all too good.

[ShakaUVM]

I'm curious if by "pole" this includes a pole-arm. Or maybe a quarterstaff? There's otherwise no game mechanics for a pole, as far as I know.

[tivadar27]

Interesting, we have someone using this trick and I was surprised when he was able to attack. My reading of this is a bit different:
* Nowhere does it say that the banner counts as a flag
* "the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat" doesn't imply to me that they can then break any of the normal restrictions of the flagbearer feat, and this bonus only applies when the flagbearer has a free hand.
* Flagbearer requires a free hand to use

Granted, the description of what a flag is closely follows the description of the banner, but still, at least in my personal campaigns, I'd rule that using the banner and a flag together still requires a free hand (banner doesn't state it requires a free hand, just that it needs to be mounted, and I wouldn't argue it could be mounted with the flag). However, this doesn't seem to be the default ruling...

[Chris P. Bacon]

Holy necromancy, Batman.

I think it's intended the Banner of the Ancient Kings also work as a flag for the purposes of the flagbearer feat; after all, it shifts it's appearance to look just like whatever flag you'd normally be carrying. So, if you have Flagbearer and are carrying around a normal flag, then you find a Banner of the Ancient Kings in some loot or something, you can get rid of the old flag and just use the BotAK instead.

And Flagbearer doesn't say that you need "a free hand", you just have to hold it in one hand. And I think holding it in two is just as good, if not better. It's ridiculous to imagine anything else:

Bard: [waving banner around in two hands and using inspire courage] "Show those orcs no mercy, brothers! For the King!"
Teammate: "Raaar, for the King! - wait, hold on! You.. you're holding that banner with two hands!
Bard: "What? So?"
Teammbate: "So I don't feel inspired at all! Waaaaaaaah!"
Bard: "..... are you #%*^ing kidding me right now?"
Teammate: "lol nope" [gets killed by an orc]
Bard: "....."
GM: "... What?"

What I think is open to more serious interpretation is whether you can actually attack with the longspear with the banner attached. A 4'x6' banner is huge, and even if it somehow didn't disrupt your ability to attack, certainly you would wind up dragging the thing through the mud, stepping on it, getting blood and gore all over it, etc, no? Not exactly great for morale, that.

I've heard of spearmen and knights using pennons attached to the ends of the spears or lances to help keep the spear from going too deep or getting stuck as easily in an opponent, but a pennon is typically much smaller than a flag and wouldn't interfere with aim as much, I figure. I'm no expert, though, and this is fantasy.

Interested to hear how other players and GMs would on this one.