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So in PFS, scrolls of wizard/sorcerer spells are assumed to be created by a wizard, giving them the minimum wizard caster level necessary to cast that spell. And per the Core Rulebook, to cast a scroll of a spell for your class that you can't cast yet, you have to make a caster level check with a DC of of the scroll's caster level +1:
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
So here's the scenario: Level 3 sorcerer can't cast spell level 2 yet, so he buys a scroll of a level 2 spell created by a level 3 wizard. (That last sentence reminds me of The Order of the Stick).
Since the sorcerer's caster level is the same as the caster level of the scroll, it seems by RAW that he'd be able to cast it without making a caster level check. But that seems like gaming the system to me. Should the sorcerer make a caster level check with a DC of 4, even though the lowest he can roll is 1 + CL 3 = 4 result, with the assumption that a natural 1 always fails?
For PFS, scrolls do not have a "type" when you buy them. They are automatically divine or arcane based on the character class you are buying the spell for. This is in the Guide, but I do not have it handy right now to quote it. The default is that all scrolls are made by wizards, clerics, and druids, if the spell appears on any of their spell lists, but you buy the scroll at the lowest level it is available of those three. For just a generic example without looking up specific spells, let's say there is a spell on the wizard list at 3rd level and the same spell on the cleric list at 2nd level. You would pay the cost to get the scroll from the cleric list, and if your character is a wizard or sorcerer, the scroll is automatically arcane.
As for being able to use the scroll without a check, I thought somewhere in the rules it said something about needing to be high enough level to actually have access to the spell, not just have it on your list, unless that was something in 3rd edition. Otherwise, you could have 1st level wizards with an 18 Int reading 8th level spells off of scrolls without any chance of failure.
And yeah, like Howie said, natural 1's are only failures for combat and saves, or in other specific situations where the rules say so, like in the text you quoted where it says the Wisdom check, not the caster level check, auto-fails on a 1. The same goes for natural 20's.
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...you could have 1st level wizards with an 18 Int reading 8th level spells off of scrolls without any chance of failure.
Enevhar ... The caster level for an 8th level spell would be 15th(for a wizard), so it would be a DC16 just to cast it. And the caster level check for a 1st level character would only have a 30% chance of success (15 - 20). INT doesn't come into play. That's a fairly outside chance on which to be blowing an awful lot of gold to pay for that scroll. And while the wisdom check is fairly simple, bad things happen when 8th level spells go "boom" with a failed check. ... And worse, the scroll is wasted.
Actually, Int does come into play, from the quote by the OP:
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If you have a wizard with an 11 Int, then that wizard will never be able to use a scroll with a spell higher than 1st on it. That is why I used the 18 Int example, as 18 is required to cast 8th level spells.
And yeah, I was tired, and still am, when I made my last post, and I read the rules and then the rules did not click in my head because the fourth requirement was not properly grouped with the other three. lol
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I'm still not clear on this.
In the stuff I quoted in the first post, does the line about a natural 1 always failing only apply to the last roll it talks about before that (the wisdom check), or does it apply to both rolls described in that paragraph (including the initial caster level check)?
Also, my main concern is a sorcerer casting a wizard/sorc spell above level 1, which wizards can always cast one level sooner. As a non-hypothetical example, my level 3 sorcerer just bought a scroll of Summon Monster 2, which is a 2nd level wiz/sorc spell. Wizards can cast it at level 3, and sorcerers can cast it at level 4. So the CL of my scroll would be 3 (the level of the wiz who created the scroll), and my caster level is 3. Do I need to roll at all, or is it just assumed I can use it, even though I wouldn't be high enough level yet to cast the spell without a scroll?
Like I said, not having to roll at all seems like gaming the system to me. But if a natural 1 doesn't automatically fail, then there's really no point to rolling, since I can't miss.
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Actually, Int does come into play... , as 18 is required to cast 8th level spells.
And yeah, I was tired, and still am, when I made my last post, and I read the rules and then the rules did not click in my head because the fourth requirement was not properly grouped with the other three. lol
yep. You're right. It generally comes into play for all casters for their max level spells. I was kind of only talking about the specific example of the DC for a scroll, but still ... You're right, too.
Wait a sec! Did two people just exchange points, both say the other person was correct, and not have a forum debate? WTF!!!
You're uglybadwrongdumbmean! Paizo gave you a goofy avatar! And I don't like your font! Ppppbbbbttttt!
;)
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Fromper ... Yes, you're right, too. It's not really gaming the system, at all. It is a strange situation, but, it's correct. I this case, a wizard scroll is slightly easier for you to cast, and isn't a difficult thing to do. The statement of a natural 1 being an automatic failure only applies to the Wisdom Check. That's why they call it out specifically, because it normally only applies to saves and attacks.
You could RP it as though it's a fairly simple scroll, and since there's "directions" your sorcerer can cast it easily. At higher levels, it grows more difficult and he isn't as adept at it, so he has to roll because he could technically mispronounce a word or make a gesture incorrectly, or what have you. It's no different than a fighter auto-hitting a bad guy, or a rogue automatically succeeding on acrobatics, or a wizard being able to meet the DC for Defensive Casting. You can just briefly tell the DM what the numbers are, and make certain he understands, and it should only be a momentary mechanics point, and the game goes on!
Yay, for sorcerers casting scrolls!
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Actually, Int does come into play, from the quote by the OP:
The user must have the requisite ability score.If you have a wizard with an 11 Int, then that wizard will never be able to use a scroll with a spell higher than 1st on it. That is why I used the 18 Int example, as 18 is required to cast 8th level spells.
And yeah, I was tired, and still am, when I made my last post, and I read the rules and then the rules did not click in my head because the fourth requirement was not properly grouped with the other three. lol
Actually, if the Int 11 Wizard is trained in UMD, and can make the requisite UMD roll, he can still use a scroll which he doesn't have the requisite ability score to handle.
Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.
So, if he can make a UMD roll of 27, he could still cast 2nd level Wizard spells... Of course, he probably has a high enough Charisma that he wouldn't need to roll the check, anyhow. ;)