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I think you are confused on how Bonded Item works. It does not start off as magical, it starts off as just a Masterwork Item. You can upgrade it to magical later.
And you are incorrect, there is not any PFS rule that says any free item received cannot be sold, there are rules for specific items that cannot be sold or sold for less GP.
I purposely not trying to get you angry, I am just saying, as a GM you can't enforce rules that don't exist, even if you think they should.
You are extrapolating rules based on specific rules for specific items. There are no rules (Currently) for stopping a player from selling his Spellbook or Bonded Item.
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And you are incorrect, there is not any PFS rule that says any free item received cannot be sold, there are rules for specific items that cannot be sold or sold for less GP.
there is one rule actually that says just that
TABLE 5–4: GENERIC PRESTIGE AWARDSFree purchase up to 750 gp (3) 2 PP
(3) Once per session, you can acquire any single item of
this cost or less from your faction by spending the
appropriate PP. Items purchased this way are worth 0 gp
and cannot be sold.
Parenthesis / emphasis Mine
now weather this is the exception ... or an example of the standard ... is likley another discussion
Thod, yeah, for an item to be made a bonded item for a wizard, it has to be masterwork. But it is a free masterwork item, you do not have to pay for any of it. Here is the quote from the Core Book for you:
Wizards who select a bonded object begin play with one at no cost. Objects that are the subject of an arcane bond must fall into one of the following categories: amulet, ring, staff, wand, or weapon. These objects are always masterwork quality. Weapons acquired at 1st level are not made of any special material.
As for whether you can start with a magical item as your bonded item, the rules at one point sound like you can and at another point sound like you can't. I do not know if this has been fixed with an errata or FAQ or even answered in the Ask James Jacobs thread, or elsewhere, as a clarification.
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Dragnmoon
I did play deliberately being confused. Here is the rule about bonded items (hope it didn't change - I have an old printing rulebook and iPad with pdf is taken right now).
... (written before). These objects are always masterwork quality. Weapons aquired at first 1st level are not made of any special material. If the object is an amulet or ring, it must be worn to have effect, while staves, wands or weapons must be wielded.
Now - there is no PFS legal MW staff without magic available. The rule doesn't specify any maximal value. It only says that weapons can't be of special material.
If as a wizard I take a staff (MW) to later upgrade this to a magic staff then as far as I interpret the rules - I'm cheating as no such thing exist as a staff (MW). On the other hand - surely a magic staff is of MW quality (and more).
There are two parts that imply a possible interpretation. The part with the MW quality would actually rule out a staff as bonded object (for a beginner character) as no such think exists as a MW staff.
At the same time the part that you have to wield a staff seems to indicate that a staff is allowed.
RAI the part about no special materials for weapons tries to put a cap on the value of the item.
Actually this leaves quite a few questions. What about rings - there is no MW ring in the book. Does it mean next time I have a Wizard with a ring as bonded object that I have to tell him off? What about wands ? Do they come fully charged, which level, legal, illigal. Amulets ?
What is actually the cost of a MW ring if I want to replace it? 50 gp as a MW tool? In this case I can start with a MW quarterstaff, sell it after session 1 and replace it with a MW ring for 50 gp + 200 gp and take the difference as profit (actually this was the bit that got me thinking about a staff as 50 gp isn't really worthwhile using a loophole in the rules).
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As for whether you can start with a magical item as your bonded item, the rules at one point sound like you can and at another point sound like you can't.
Yes - this pretty exactly sums up my reading of the rule as rings, amulets, wands and staves all fall under this area.
In a home game I can just 'creat' MW items of the above or allow a magic item - provided it isn't overpowered. As PFS GM I have 'to follow the rules' - well - what are they exactly.
The staff example is ridiciolous - but deliberately so. A wand (say Magic missiles) on the other hand is just 750 gp - not much more as a MW quarterstaff.
A - What is actually the most expensive rules legal MW weapon that you can chose?
B - And what is the cheapest bonded item you can buy?
As long as A/2 > B + 200 you can make a profit by chosing A, sell it at first opportunity and make B your actual bonded item.
A two bladed sword comes in at 700 GP (sales price 350). Not good enough to get you another MW weapon and to pay the 200 extra - but that was the reason to ask about cost of MW rings or amulets.
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I think for this I will get shot down ...
But as far as I can tell this is 100% rules legal (but any GM seeing this at the table should just shoot it down).
Step 1: Wizard - bonded object - take a Pepperbox - value 3000 gp (I still haven't found if they are automaticall MW quality or not?).
Because I take it 'for free' I'm not restricted by the feat I otherwise need to buy it. It is a weapon and of no special material. So it is a possible bonded item.
Step 2: Sell it as quickly as possible and get a reasonable bonded item. There are many available for approx. 500gp.
All in all - I start with 1000 gp more as I should.
I'm sure the above scheme is a clear misuse of RAW and even if there isn't a PFS rule against it I should be fully enabled to stop it at my table even if I'm only 'of the opinion that this is wrong'.
My applology to Nosig and especially his wife for derailing this thread. I also never intended to say they wanted to make a profit. But it was the combination of their posts together with Dragnmoon's post that got me thinking.
No character can have a gun without having a level in gunslinger first. This is a PFS-specific rule and trumps all other ways to get a gun.
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No character can have a gun without having a level in gunslinger first. This is a PFS-specific rule and trumps all other ways to get a gun.
Incorrect. No PFS PC may have a gun unless they have the Gunsmithing feat. You don't even need the Exotic Weapon proficiency for the gun, just the ability to "craft" it.
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No character can have a gun without having a level in gunslinger first. This is a PFS-specific rule and trumps all other ways to get a gun.
That is not actually True, they need the Gunsmithing feat, it is perfectly legal for a Wizard to get the feat and get any MW gun that is legal in PFS for free. It is within the rules and legal for them to sell it later.
Odd thing to do though, not very useful without the Gunslinger class, unless they planned to Multi-class later.
Just because it does not sound "Right" to you does not make it not Legal.
Thod if you insisted with me that you did not care about that it was a total legal thing, and you would not let me do it, I would basically Ignore you, and would feel comfortable doing so since you would not have the right to tell me no for this in PFS, as of now.
No character can have a gun without having a level in gunslinger first. This is a PFS-specific rule and trumps all other ways to get a gun.Incorrect. No PFS PC may have a gun unless they have the Gunsmithing feat. You don't even need the Exotic Weapon proficiency for the gun, just the ability to "craft" it.
Sort of. More specifically, you can ONLY get a firearm if you have the Gunsmithing feat. Having Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Amateur Gunslinger does not get you access to a firearm:
No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats.
I was also pretty sure either the Additional Resources or the FAQ also stated that only gunslingers could have the Gunsmithing feat in PFS play, but I cannot find that now, so maybe it was just in a post by one of the PFS heads and is not the official rule right now.
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I was also pretty sure either the Additional Resources or the FAQ also stated that only gunslingers could have the Gunsmithing feat in PFS play, but I cannot find that now, so maybe it was just in a post by one of the PFS heads and is not the official rule right now.
That was true during the Beta Test, the opened it up when UC came out.
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You are all missing an important point here:
No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats.
RAW a wizard starts with a free MW bonded item. He never purchases it. As such he just sidesteps this clause that intent him not to have a firearm.
As such RAW you can't stop me as GM. No feat necessary. So I don't lose anything.
Please remember I started this because the question was - what are the rights of a GM to do in case of questionable rules.
I'm still looking into siege engines as they are a) weapons b) never intended to be used in PFS but c) haven't found yet a sentence ruling it out to own one.
Just to ensure you know why I did the post. I'm fully under the conviction that as a GM I can stop shenanigans like the above even if RAW this might not be covered. I therefore crafted an outrageous against RAI example that gives me an advantage (approx +1000 gp after scenario 1). In my view a GM has the right to stop this and I even posted the paragraph earlier.
I mainly posted this as I disagree that a PFS GM is completely powerless to avoid misuse of rules.
It is probably unfortunate that it started with a maybe legal example - the sale of my bonded Quarterstaff. I didn't take the 300 gp because I didn't think I would be allowed money for a free item. I'm still unsure about this - but I wouldn't stop a player who thinks otherwise.
But I would stop a player starting with a pepper box as bonded item with the sole intention to make money of it.
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I'm still looking into siege engines as they are a) weapons b) never intended to be used in PFS but c) haven't found yet a sentence ruling it out to own one.
Siege engines are not for use in PFS, no one can own them *period*. They aren't allowed in the Additional Resources tab.
As to the rest of your point, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The Guide has its "Common Sense Clause" to cover things such as this.
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Siege engines are not for use in PFS, no one can own them *period*. They aren't allowed in the Additional Resources tab.
Alexander
It did take me a moment and just to be sure - I 100% agree with you RAI. The important bit is not if they are allowed but that they are not disallowed (using nitpick reading).
Here is RAW:
Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat
The playtest versions of the gunslinger, ninja, and samurai are no longer legal for play as of 8/4/11. Anyone playing the playtest version must have updated his or her character as of 8/4/11. Updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character.
All material from this book is legal for play except as noted below. Some rules elements are legal but function differently in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, as described.
Gunslinger: A gunslinger’s starting gun (granted by the gunsmith class feature) is worth 22 gp if sold (the average of 4d10).
A gunslinger begins each scenario with her Wisdom modifier in grit (or her maximum grit if she has the Extra Grit feat). Any additional grit earned above her starting grit does not carry over past the scenario’s conclusion.
The Daring Act optional rule is not used in the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign.
Samurai: A samurai who changes his order must inform the GM of the change at the start of each scenario during the entire level in which he receives no benefits from his order, getting GM initials in the items purchased/ conditions removed section of each Chronicle until he has earned 3 XP as an orderless samurai. A samurai who adopts the way of the ronin must have his GM initial such a change on his Chronicle when the decision to change orders is made.
All samurais belonging to the Ronin order treat the three tenets of the Pathfinder Society (explore, report, and cooperate) as their edicts as outlined in Seekers of Secrets.
A samurai may only choose from the listed animals for his mount.
Alchemist: The poison conversion discovery and siege bombs discovery are not legal for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Barbarian: The wild rager archetype is not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play
Cavalier: The musketeer archetype is not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Fighter: The gladiator archetype is not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Inquisitor: Inquisitions are not permitted for any inquisitor.
Magus: A soul forger magus can add his magus level to Craft checks as part of a Day Job check, but may not craft magic or mundane items for use in scenarios or for resale.
Paladin: The knight of the sepulcher and holy gun archetypes are not legal for Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Ranger: The trophy hunter archetype is not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Rogue: The black market connections rogue talent and the driver archetype are not legal for Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Wizard: The siege mage and spellslinger archetypes are not permited in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Feats: The following feats are not allowed in Pathfinder Society Organized Play: Expert Driver, Field Repair, Master Combat Performer, Master Siege Engineer, Performance Weapon Master, Performing Combatant, Secret Stash Deed, Siege Commander, Siege Engineer, Siege Gunner, Skilled Driver,, and all performance feats.
The following two feats function differently in Pathfinder Society Organized Play than they do in regular games:
Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item. No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats.
A cavalier of 4th level or higher may take the Horse Master trait, ignoring the expert trainer class feature. A cavalier who trades this class feature for another as part of an archetype can not take the Horse Master feat.
Equipment: Advanced firearms on Table 3–5 are not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. No character may purchase a firearm unless he possesses the Gunsmithing feat. All ammunition except metal cartridges may be purchased in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Spells: All spells in chapter 6 are legal for play except the following: arcane cannon, energy siege shot, greater energy siege shot, greater magic siege engine, and magic siege engine.
Other: Unless prompted in a scenario or granted by a Chronicle, the rules for duels, performance combat, and siege engines, and all variant rules in Chapter 5 are not used in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
The important bits:
All material from this book is legal for play except as noted below.
Wizard: The siege mage and spellslinger archetypes are not permited in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Feats: The following feats are not allowed in Pathfinder Society Organized Play: Expert Driver, Field Repair, Master Combat Performer, Master Siege Engineer, Performance Weapon Master, Performing Combatant, Secret Stash Deed, Siege Commander, Siege Engineer, Siege Gunner, Skilled Driver,, and all performance feats.
Equipment: Advanced firearms on Table 3–5 are not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. No character may purchase a firearm unless he possesses the Gunsmithing feat. All ammunition except metal cartridges may be purchased in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Other: Unless prompted in a scenario or granted by a Chronicle, the rules for duels, performance combat, and siege engines, and all variant rules in Chapter 5 are not used in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Now as I said - all the above points 100% to a ban on siege engines. But the way I read it RAW siege engine rules are page 158-160. The Siege engines themselves are euipment and are on page 161 as part of the chapter Siege Weapon Descriptions. So the clause that the siege engine rules are not legal in PFS doesn't include page 160.
And Table 3-13 is not ruled out in equipment either where table 3-5 is rules out.
And reading through all the rules confirmes that Siege Engines are (exotic) weapons - so by a very long stretch they are allowed as bonded items. Yes - I'm 100% aware I make a mockery of all RAI.
Just to be sure - I adhore micromanagement and I don't think it is a good use of time for Mike to make each and every ruling 100% watertight. We have GMs for this to rule at the table and all the above should be more than enough for a GM to make a ruling that doesn't get disputed - even - if by my reading - RAW it is allowed.
To summarize this again much to long post
So my reading of the rules:
Buying and owning a siege engine - while not RAI - slips through the cracks with the current wording in the additional resources.
My take as GM:
On minor issues (like the few GP for the spellbook or for the quarterstaff that are hardly more as rounding errors at that wealth level) I will discuss it with a player and will come to a solution. If in doubt I will try to err on the side of the player. Not every minor issue needs a 100 post discussion on these boards.
If I feel someone tries to flagantly misuse rules then I will disallow it and I'm happy to answer to the local VC, Mike or the board if a player feels he got wronged. But I feel it is in my power to make a decision at the table.
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The so-called "Common Sense Clause" applies to where the rules are genuinely unclear, not where the rules are simply disliked. And it takes more than a lack of reading comprehension skills to make a rule unclear.
For example, failing to ever bother checking the FAQ does not cause a rule to be fuzzy:
A bonded item that is enchanted must still conform to all the campaign rules for access to and upgrading of magical items.
Furthermore, reading bits and pieces of Additional Resources does not cause a rule to be fuzzy:
Other: Unless prompted in a scenario or granted by a Chronicle, the rules for duels, performance combat, and siege engines, and all variant rules in Chapter 5 are not used in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Note the distinct lack of any page references in this part. It doesn't say "siege engine rules from page XXX are not used", it says "rules for siege engines are not used". So pointing out that siege engines appear in more than one part of the book is completely irrelevant, since the banning is not based on page numbers or chapters.
And here's example #3:
Items purchased this way are worth 0 gp
and cannot be sold.
"Items purchased this way" does not mean "Any item acquired without gold, whether by this method or any other". Once again, we're talking about basic reading comprehension skills here.
Failing to read simple sentences, and then pretending that the result represents the difference between "RAW" and "RAI", is a lie. To in turn use that fabrication to support why you don't have to follow clearly-written rules at your table is an absolute disgrace.
Sorry to start off the week on such a caustic note here, but I am mortified that this mentality of final authority, this sense of "no one can tell me what to do at my table", even extends to our most esteemed GMs. I can't believe that people who have earned the privilege to run Exclusives would refuse to follow the written directives of their superiors until that directive comes with their own name on it. At that point, can we even trust that you'd change your tune if Mike did address you directly? I mean, he wrote the Guide, he's stated here that he wants things run as written, he decides what's on the Additional Resources list, and he writes the FAQ. Yet some of our 4-star GMs are willing to blatantly disregard all that until he addresses them personally?
Our 4+ star GMs should be the people we can look up to, the people who teach newer GMs how to run things differently than a home game. You should be setting an example of how to defer to Mike's judgment, not how to ignore it in favor of your own.
In my experience, the single biggest problem with Organized Play is when a GM ignores the rules in favor of their own idea of how things should be, and then calls it "adjudicating".
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So everyone is aware.
This is just based on what is current written.
This may be just something that Mike/Mark/Hyrum just missed.
They may decide you can't do any of this in PFS in a future update.
But until that time, if it happens, a GM should not be allowed to tell someone they can't do something supported by RAW because they don't like it.
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So everyone is aware.
This is just based on what is current written.
This may be just something that Mike/Mark/Hyrum just missed.
They may decide you can't do any of this in PFS in a future update.
And for the record, if that happens, then I (and I'm guessing DMoon as well) will argue just as vehemently in that direction when a GM decides to break that rule and call it an "adjudication".
How about actually starting a thread which pertains to this... issue... instead of threadjacking nosig's query about spellbook sales?
Really.
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If you want to be "fair to yourself," I recommend that when you sell your spell book, you only pay yourself for the spells you scribed from scrolls or other spellbooks, not the book or the spells you got for leveling up. If you follow this, you'll have a hard time finding a GM who doesn't agree that it was proper.
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If you want to be "fair to yourself," I recommend that when you sell your spell book, you only pay yourself for the spells you scribed from scrolls or other spellbooks, not the book or the spells you got for leveling up. If you follow this, you'll have a hard time finding a GM who doesn't agree that it was proper.
That's probably a good idea. If you do the opposite, then at the moment a GM doesn't have a leg to stand on to deny you that gold, but it seems ripe for changing in the next Guide (or in the FAQ), and getting retconned wouldn't be fun. Also, having to argue with a GM at the table wouldn't be fun for anyone either.
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If you want to be "fair to yourself," I recommend that when you sell your spell book, you only pay yourself for the spells you scribed from scrolls or other spellbooks, not the book or the spells you got for leveling up. If you follow this, you'll have a hard time finding a GM who doesn't agree that it was proper.
This is what I would suggest and this is why I didn't take money when I 'disposed' of my old bonded item.
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Jiggy
My reading comprehension is not perfect - but I would argue it is better as the average poster here.
As GM I try to follow the rules as well as possible. But I'm not easily intimidated by opinions - neither at the table nor here on the boards. I do change my mind if someone convinces me with arguments - but not if someone shouts.
As a experienced GM I also try to outline problems when I think I see them. Selling 'free' items has the potential to be misused. And it hasn't taken me that long to work out a way to bolster the starting money for a wizard.
In regard to Siege Engines:
There are rules about them in the Core Rulebook to page 434 - 436. I'm not aware that they are ruled out anywhere. Table 13-8 in CRB lists several 100% PFS legal albeit not always available Siege Engines.
Ultimate Combat says: The basic rules for Siege Engines are found on pages 434-436 of the Core Rulebook. The following new options on Siege Engines both supplement and expand upon those rules. If the rules ever appear in conflict, use the rules below.
When the 'Rules for Siege Engines' are not in the additional resources then it follows that the rules for Siege Engine in the CRB are to be used. As such there is a clear difference between the table 3-13 and the chapter 'Rules for Siege Engines'. It isn't as clear as you make it that table 3-13 are disallowed items. Actually after doing some more research and finding legal Siege Engines and legal Siege engine rules in the CRB I'm now convinced that table 3-13 is allowed (to be used in a sensible manner) and not just an oversight.
So back to my money-spinning scheme:
a) A wizard starts with a free MW weapon.
B) A Siege engine is a weapon, they are in the CRB and unless someone shows me where the part of the CRB is not allowed, then everyone can buy them.
C) They are not always available items. This would be a reason to assume they should be non available at start but nothing in the rules as far as I'm aware states that a bonded item needs to be always available.
So I still say RAW that a wizard can take a siege engine as his bonded item. Nobody here has shown me any convincing argument that he can't. Why is this of any importance?
Well - as I said earlier - this started with my attempt to make a profit by taking the most expensive (free) MW weapon available in all the books as my bonded item and sell it as soon as possible. As it turns out - it seems I need to go to Firearms or Siege Engines to make the scheme game distorting.
The difference between a Siege Tower (CRB, table 13-8, page 435) or a Cannon, fiend's mouth, (Ultimate Combat, page 161) is just how much extra starting money I can generate by doing this.
The Siege tower costs 2300 and can be sold for 1150, the Cannon, fiend's mouth cost 9300 and can be sold for 4650 making it much more attractive as I could make >4000 gp profit and start with as much GP as I should only have a few levels later.
Please keep in mind this is a 100% artificial scenario I generated here. But yes - when do I break RAW and when do I adjucate when I outrule a scheme like the above?
I doubt the line is as clear as some people like it to be. Otherwise we wouldn't have so many heated discussions here.
Peace !!
Thod
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If you check the other thread, you'll see that this results in at least two different amounts....
Which do you agree with?
I don't know the 'right' answer. Therefore I take the one the player feels most passionate about and feels is right - provided I feel it doesn't unbalance the PFS play.
It is unlikely to be worthwhile ruining the fun when it isn't sure that I know better as the player.
Should I feel the solution is unbalancing, then this becomes a different issue (see SiegeEngine example) and I will seek back-up from other GMs, VCs or here on the boards or even ask for an official ruling.
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As a experienced GM I also try to outline problems when I think I see them. Selling 'free' items has the potential to be misused.
This right here is the crux of it. You absolutely should be identifying problems, and you're absolutely correct that selling "free" items has the potential for abuse.
The problem is what action you take when you identify a potential problem.
The correct response in Organized Play is to alert your superiors to the issue so that it can be corrected campaign-wide (or deemed to be not a problem, depending on the issue).
If you were canvassing for a clarification/rules change on the topic, I'd be here supporting you 100%.
The problem is that instead of letting the person in charge address an issue, you're taking it into your own hands and wielding illegitimate power at your own tables.
In a home game, the GM should be making these decisions. In Organized Play, the GM should be bringing it to someone else's attention so they can address it.
The GM follows the rules. The campaign coordinator decides what the rules are in the first place. By "adjudicating" things contrary to the written rules on the subject, you are essentially trying to do Mike's job. I think Mike deserves a bit more respect than that.
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As a experienced GM I also try to outline problems when I think I see them. Selling 'free' items has the potential to be misused.This right here is the crux of it. You absolutely should be identifying problems, and you're absolutely correct that selling "free" items has the potential for abuse.
The problem is what action you take when you identify a potential problem.
The correct response in Organized Play is to alert your superiors to the issue so that it can be corrected campaign-wide (or deemed to be not a problem, depending on the issue).
If you were canvassing for a clarification/rules change on the topic, I'd be here supporting you 100%.
The problem is that instead of letting the person in charge address an issue, you're taking it into your own hands and wielding illegitimate power at your own tables.
In a home game, the GM should be making these decisions. In Organized Play, the GM should be bringing it to someone else's attention so they can address it.
The GM follows the rules. The campaign coordinator decides what the rules are in the first place. By "adjudicating" things contrary to the written rules on the subject, you are essentially trying to do Mike's job. I think Mike deserves a bit more respect than that.
Mike and Mark have both said they cannot and will not put *everything* in the guide. They want GM's on the ground to use common sense. If a player found a loophole in the guide to start off with 2k in gold at level 1, a GM should both report it up the chain of command and tell the player that isn't how it works.
Mike can't do everything. We can't expect him to handle every single corner case that could possibly come up. If he did, the guide would turn into a novel, and no one would read it.
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Mike and Mark have both said they cannot and will not put *everything* in the guide. They want GM's on the ground to use common sense. If a player found a loophole in the guide to start off with 2k in gold at level 1, a GM should both report it up the chain of command and tell the player that isn't how it works.
I don't agree with this, if a player finds a loop hole a GM should grin and bare it and request a reply from staff, if he does not get one, he just continues to grin and bear it.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Mike and Mark have both said they cannot and will not put *everything* in the guide. They want GM's on the ground to use common sense.
They have also both said that they want GMs to follow the rules, and that unless otherwise *explicitly* called out in the Guide/FAQ, the campaign uses unmodified Core Rules.
And if you think the call for common sense somehow "trumps" the call to follow the rules, then keep in mind that Mike has in the past felt the need to start a whole new thread asking GMs to stop cheating, but has made no such thread asking GMs to use a little more common sense in their rulings.
If a player found a loophole in the guide to start off with 2k in gold at level 1, a GM should both report it up the chain of command and tell the player that isn't how it works.
There's a big difference between starting with 2k gold at 1st level, and selling your spellbook for the price outlined in the Core Rules. Impossibly outlandish hypotheticals don't really help make your point. I didn't respond to the spellbook issue by claiming that Thod would start changing prices for things in order to make my call to fairness look better, so don't invent stupid hyperboles to try to make your side look better.
Mike can't do everything. We can't expect him to handle every single corner case that could possibly come up. If he did, the guide would turn into a novel, and no one would read it.
Asking that people follow the rules that already exist does not inflate the rules or cause extra work for Mike. Trying to throw the Rulebook-Into-Novel defense in here doesn't even make sense. Thod's the one saying he needs additional commentary from Mike before he'll let players follow the Core rules on spellbooks, and I'm the one saying no such intervention is needed in this case.
If you'd like to call me out (which I'm totally fine with), could you at least use real arguments instead of hyperbolic absurdities and inapplicable catchphrases?
For those who were talking about arcane bonding a gun and not about spellbook selling, this thread from last year was talking about just this. For some reason, it was moved to the rules section from the PFS section, so even though I bumped it, it may not get seen by Mike and Mark again or by everyone here discussing it, so I wanted to link it here too.
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You posted it yourself:
Other: Unless prompted in a scenario or granted by a Chronicle, the rules for duels, performance combat, and siege engines, and all variant rules in Chapter 5 are not used in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
If you truly had better reading comprehension than most, you'd see the sentence is a condensed version of this:
1) The rules for duels are not used in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, unless prompted in a scenario or granted by a Chronicle.2) The rules for performance combat are not used in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, unless prompted in a scenario or granted by a Chronicle.
3) The rules for siege engines are not used in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, unless prompted in a scenario or granted by a Chronicle.
4) All variant rules in Chapter 5 are not used in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, unless prompted in a scenario or granted by a Chronicle.
I'm not sure how much clearer that can be...
IMHO, a Human Wizard cannot take the Gunsmithing feat at 1st level to gain a firearm as their bonded item, otherwise the Spellslinger archetype would be allowed. They can *purchase* a firearm as normal for the feat, but they wouldn't be able to afford it at 1st level.
For the OP:
Using your example, and based on the rules and chart found here, I'd say you can sell it for 215 gp. (Half the cost of scribing them into the book)
0- 10 x 5 gp / 2 = 25 gp
1st- 10 x 10 gp / 2 = 50 gp
2nd- 7 x 40 gp / 2 = 140 gp
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Ok, let's close this discussion about siege engines. I have added it to the FAQ so no one is tempted to abuse the rules because they are not clearly spelled out in every manner they can be.
Also, since there is another thread discussing selling spellbooks, I am locking this one.