Savage warrior and unarmed strike

[Vinja89]

howdy yall, for a while ive been planning a character for when i find a new group that would be a fighter who uses fists and grapples, i kind of fell in love with the savage warrior archetype for flavor reasons but have a question concerning his weapon training replacement

"Natural Savagery (Ex)

At 5th level, a savage warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with natural weapons. This bonus also applies to CMB and CMD for grappling. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th.

This ability replaces Weapon Training 1."

would that apply to fists as well? my plan is to try and go half orc with the toothy trait to get a 1d4 bite, im pretty sure mixing that in with twf using fists would make it a secondary natural attack right? and use grappling feats and the snapping turtle style feat chain.

anyhow just curious for some clarification, the unarmed fighter archetype just doesnt appeal to me at all and brawler would be a second if that doesnt modify your fists.

thanks in advance and god bless

[Archaeik]

Under Equipment:

Quote:

Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons: Anybody but a druid, monk, or wizard is proficient with all simple weapons. Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Characters of other classes are proficient with an assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

Quote:

Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at his discretion. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat).

Under Combat:

Quote:

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).

Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).

Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

And under Bestiary Natural Attacks

Quote:

Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes, but treat them as weapons for the purpose of determining attack bonuses, and they must use the two-weapon fighting rules when making attacks with both hands. See Table: Natural Attacks by Size for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.

Under Monk

Quote:

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage on the table given below.

Unless you are a Monk, UAS does not count as a "natural weapon". (although it is mentioned in the natural attacks section of the bestiary, AND is affected by certain spells that also affect natural attacks)

The key difference being the part I highlighted about natural weapons not getting additional attacks (but more for extra limbs). UAS gets an entry on the [manufactured] weapon list, and is treated as such (extra attacks for high BAB).

You are also correct that combining UAS with natural attacks you possess cause those attacks to become secondary.

At least that's the RAW... (I think the idea behind it being that UAS isn't a weapon at all, but is treated as such -- as is evidenced by all the places it says "the damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage")

My advice would be to discuss it with your GM and see what he says before totally scrapping the build though.

[Vinja89]

yeah, it just confuses me on why the archetype exists. how many core races get natural weapons without having to dip to only get them a few rounds a day? also the fact that unarmed is in the natural weapon training group along with natural attacks.

it just confuses me, so it would be kosher if it said "Natural Savagery (Ex)

At 5th level, a savage warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with weapons in the natural weapon training group. This bonus also applies to CMB and CMD for grappling. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th.

This ability replaces Weapon Training 1."

or just take one level in monk then it would affect it?

[Archaeik]

I'm under the impression it was written for monsters... which isn't entirely inappropriate just because most PC races don't have natural weapons.

I'd probably like it more if it was written as you say, but as it is, you'd need that level of monk.

I said to talk to your GM because I'd probably hand wave it.

[Vinja89]

all right thanks brother, really appreciate the clarification

[Lobolusk]

you may like the unarmed fighter or brawler.
for a mean grappler face puncher i would go 5 levels of brutal pugilist/urban barbarian then 15 levels of brawler. you will be a murder face! or you can go tetori it is a specific monk grappling class.

[Vinja89]

my problem with the unarmed fighter is its way to combat maneuver focused, it gets abilities to get a free trip on a successful drag attempt, and a free dirty trick after a successful trip. now my problem is its just going to be way to feat intensive, i would already have to take the TWF line, the improved grapple line, the snapping turtle style line, then combat expertise would be added on which i would never use just for imp. trip and dirty trick and greater versions, just so i dont have useless class features, and on top of that i would need power attack which i wouldnt use on a TWF build unless using a double weapon to two hand, just for improved and greater drag.

brawler is VERY good, i just have seen alot of them and kind of wanted to try a different unarmed fighter *shrugs*

[Lobolusk]

here is my perfect unarmed fighter
Here

I agree with you on the runarmed fighter but you also get DR while grappling and most of the trip and drag attempts you get for free. you also get quite a few grapple things like no dex bonus to grapple and such. plus it allows you to pick up Style feats like cake!

[blackbloodtroll]

There are base races with natural weapons. You can play a changeling with the adopted and tusked trait, or a Oni-spawn tiefling, who with his alter self ability, can have a slew of natural weapons.

[Glutton]

anyone who dips 2 into ranger can have 2 permanent claw attacks. Aspect of the beast