Produce Flame as a Thrown Weapon and Vital Strike

[Archaeik]

Produce Flame wrote:

Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment.

In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves.

This spell does not function underwater.

Is there anything preventing this?

I didn't see this specifically discussed in the 1 thread I found.

It's not particularly powerful, and I think you'd be hard pressed to get GVS with it, but the (minimal) abuse comes come the last part I bolded since the vital strike counts as 1 attack, so you can "double up" your damage while getting more rounds of use out of the spell.

In terms of balance and feat cost, I don't think it's a big deal, I was just wondering if the "thrown weapon" bit isn't enough to qualify for VS?

Also, do you not get a free touch/ranged touch when you cast this spell? (seems kinda stingy if you don't)

[HaraldKlak]

Archaeik wrote:

In terms of balance and feat cost, I don't think it's a big deal, I was just wondering if the "thrown weapon" bit isn't enough to qualify for VS?

Also, do you not get a free touch/ranged touch when you cast this spell? (seems kinda stingy if you don't)

Given that it is count as a thrown weapon, it should be eligable for vital strike. It doesn't seem broken to allow it. However VS only affects damage dice, so it might be argued that the + 5 damage from caster level isn't multiplied.

No, you don't get an attack when casting the spell. It isn't a ranged touch spell or touch spell. But the duration enables you to cast it before combat in those situations that allow preparation.

[Mergy]

Vital Strike should be fine. It would still only do 2d6 + level though; like HaraldKlak says, no attack on the first round.

[Baelin]

Word of God has it that Vital Strike was only intended to be used with weapons, never with spells.

References are here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Vital-Strike-8-20-10-

and specifically here:
Q: How does Vital Strike effect weapon-like spells (ie Chill Touch, Inflict Light Wounds)?

A: (James Jacobs 11/6/09) Vital Strike wasn't ever intended to give spellcasters a way to double their damage dice, and you can expect it to be reworded in an upcoming FAQ sooner or later to enforce this role. [Source]

A: (James Jacobs 11/5/09) Vital Strike does not allow you to sneak out extra damage with spells unless that spell works like a weapon. You could vital strike with a flame blade. Not with a scorching ray. [Source]

[Mergy]

Hence it should work, as it's not a ray, but a spell that gives you a ranged touch attack.

If a jabberwock can Vital Strike with its eye ray, I don't see why a druid can't do so with produce flame.

[Baelin]

Not really Mergy, ranged touch attacks are not weapon attacks. As such, the eye rays of the Jabberwock (or Beholder) are not valid for this purpose.

If you're speaking from experience, I'm afraid the GM got the rules wrong on that one.

Vital Strike only applies to weapons covered in the Simple, Martial, Exotic or Natural Weapons list only (eg: unarmed strike, bite, claw, gore, slam, tentacle, wing, etc). It can't be used in conjunction with other abilities aside from those that specify that you wield it like a stipulated weapon (eg: flame blade which specifies that you wield it like a scimitar).

Even effects that resemble weapons (eg: Spiritual Weapon, Mage's Sword) won't work because you wield them as spells, not weapons.

[Mergy]

Well someone should tell Kingmaker that.

Produce flame gives you a thrown weapon: "Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon."

[Charlie Bell]

GVS disintegrate!!11!!1!

[Mergy]

Baelin wrote:

Vital Strike only applies to weapons covered in the Simple, Martial, Exotic or Natural Weapons list only...

Citation please.

Just because it's a ranged touch attack does not mean you cannot Vital Strike with it.

Vital Strike (Combat) wrote:

You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

Produce flame gives the character a thrown weapon, so it's usable with Vital Strike. A jabberwock's eye ray is as follows:

eye rays (Su) wrote:

The jabberwock can project beams of fire from its eyes as a ranged touch attack as a standard action, with a range increment of 60 feet. It projects two beams, and can target different creatures with these beams if it wishes as long as both targets are within 30 feet of each other. A creature that takes damage from an eye beam suffers burn.

Hmm, a ranged touch attack that is a supernatural ability and totally not a spell? Seems Vital Strikable.

[Volaran]

Personally, I would allow it with spells that allow you iterative attacks from your BAB(so yes with chill touch, produce flame, and flame blade, no with things like scorching ray). Not saying that's official. James' clearly knows what he's talking about. That would just be my call.

[SmiloDan]

In 3.5, I had an elven archer druid that used Rapid Shot with produce flame. Which is actually a better option than Vital Strike, IMHO. It's also a fun spell to use while wildshaped.

EDIT:

A wand of produce flame would be great for a rogue! It can be used as a melee touch attack or a ranged melee attack, and can be used to get sneak attacks.

[Maxximilius]

The spell says you get a thrown weapon, it cannot be clearer.
And seriously, 2d6 for the price of a spell and a feat isn't gonna break the game.

[Archaeik]

No one seemed to comment on the part about number of attacks. (although like I said, it's pretty minimal)

It seems the intent of the spell is that you lose 1 min of duration for every 1d6 of energy you release with it.
But, the way it's worded means that you can extend the number of attacks you can make while maintaining almost the same amount of damage using VS since it's "only 1 attack".

More powerful, no. More efficient, yes.

[Mergy]

Archaeik wrote:

No one seemed to comment on the part about number of attacks. (although like I said, it's pretty minimal)

It seems the intent of the spell is that you lose 1 min of duration for every 1d6 of energy you release with it.
But, the way it's worded means that you can extend the number of attacks you can make while maintaining almost the same amount of damage using VS since it's "only 1 attack".

More powerful, no. More efficient, yes.

By the time a character can get this spell and Vital Strike, he's likely level 9, and it doesn't matter either way.

[SmiloDan]

But by 9th level, he can have 4 attacks per round (if hasted) that do 1d6+5. 4d6+20. Average damage 34.

[Mergy]

Are you bringing Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting into this? Otherwise, I count only 3 while hasted.