Eidolon 30 ft Reach possible? and question about "bodyguard" model

[Menelmacar]

Hey Guys,
so first of all I got into a discussion with one of my players, who wants to play a summoner in the upcoming Adventure Path. He schemed the following:
You take a biped Eidolon with some natural attack (like bite), 'Enlarge Person' it, give it a reach weapon AND take the reach evolution for that weapon. First Question is: Can the Reach Evolution be taken for Weapon attacks, and if yes, do you have to take them for a specific weapon type. I think general oppinion is, you can. But let's add all this up:
First of all, because of his natural attack he will threaten the 10ft around him, regardless of the reach weapon.
If we treat his base reach with that particular weapon as 5 ft. larger, and taking into account reach weapon rules, in my oppinion he should threaten 30 ft, with the exception of that one belt of 15 ft. distance. The 'natural' range of his weapon attack should be 15 ft., reach weapon makes it 20-30 ft. So overall his threatened radius should look like that:

xBB0WWW

with B being his Bite attack, 0 being unthreatened and W being threatened by his reach weapon.

You could also argue, that the 5 ft. extra evolution reach is added AFTER doubling the reach for the weapon, making his threat radius look like that:

xBBWWW0

With the first option he would threaten a total of 13*13-24 = 145 squares... What the heck? The second option gets 121.

My second question is: In the summoner rules it specifically says:
"The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. "
Looking at the Eidolon models we read the following concerning the "Bodyguard" model:

"The eidolon looks like a humanoid warrior. The natural armor of a Bodyguard eidolon appears to be a suit of metal plate, though this armor is actually part of the eidolon’s body."

In my oppinion the base rule should break that 'flavor' text, making the eidolon still look fantastical in some way. Which gives rise to another question: How do people in Golarion react to Eidolons/Animal Companions and the like.
Do people know about Summoners having some kind of outsider at their side? Are they permitted at places where no one is allowed to carry weapons?
I know this is more of a DMing question, but I'd like to know how you handle that. Or if you handle that at all.

[Cheapy]

I don't think the intent was that you could take Reach for a weapon, but the wording does say that. There's no other ability in the game (or if there is, it's highly rare) that does anything like that, so I don't know why the Eidolon rules would institute that with such little fan-fare.

In golarion, summoners are the rarest class of all. Even Gunslingers are more common than them. They will not be understood by most, and Eidolons will be even more a foreign concept than the summoner. People will react to the eidolon much like they do any other monster, because to them, that's all it is.

I can't imagine they'd be allowed where weapons aren't. They're monsters to most people.

[Rocky Williams 530]

I don't believe reach would work with a weapon. It's for the eidolon's natural attacks. But, as the GM, if you want to let it work with a weapon, go for it.

[Menelmacar]

I don't really want to to be honest. Having 145 squares threatened... naaah.. (and my interpretation what the same.. I don't think it was meant to be used for weapons)

And what about Eidolons and Disguise checks. The wording of the Disguise skill would give it a mere -2 penalty to be taken for a human, although there would still be that magical rune on it's head.. Of course you could cover it.. but a knight in black armor with a helmet, covering the helmet with some kind of cape.. seems even more suspicious to me.

[CommandoDude]

What I am seeing is only 5 squares of reach.

10ft for natural attacks. 5ft for the evolution. 5ft for the enlarge person. And, if a Reach weapon can be used, 5ft for it.

Although, even without the reach weapon, your player is getting his Eidolon 20ft of reach. That is very impressive.

Under the 'Reach' evolution description, it says one of the Eidolon's attacks gets the Reach. It doesn't say "weapons" and that is very important because nowhere in the Eidolon page does it say that Eidolons are proficient with weapons, simple or martial.

Realistically, the player could have an Eidolon take a proficiency feat, but I think this establishes that the language for 'Reach' is not talking about weapons.

[Menelmacar]

"Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike
up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their
natural reach or less." (Core Rulebook p. 195)
A Reach weapon does not only add 5 ft. it doubles the reach. And without a Reach weapon he effectively has 15 ft Reach for whatever attack he chose for the Reach Evolution.
Where do you get 10 ft reach for natural attacks? It's 10 ft AFTER Enlarge Person. So you only add the 5 ft for the evolution.

[Selgard]

Add me in for not thinking they get reach with weapons for taking the evolution. I believe the intent was for his natural weapons only.

Also:

The dev's have said that "fantastical" is an actual rule not just fluff- so the creature can not look like any existing creature.

If you want to hand waive that, its up to you, but if I were the player I'd just make it an open faced (and empty) helmet or something along those lines.

As to how the folk in Golarion treat it.. well.. thats largely up to you. Eidolon always have the rune, if I remember correctly, so there's at least some chance someone will realize what it is.. but I think generally the more normal it looks the less likely you are to not be able to have it in town with you. But there really isn't a "rule" for it.. they are as accepting or not, as is your pleasure.

Just do yourself and the PC a favor and talk to them about that aspect of it before hand. They have the right to know how hard or soft you are going to be on that issue before they make the character- at least iMo.

-S

[Marten Fawkes]

Pfff, you make me sound like an obnoxious munchkin.
That was mainly a fun thought experiment to see what the rules make possible RAW.

Another problem we stumbled upon is the question of Eidolon equipment and whether it gets brought along with the Eidolon when it is summoned or if you have to equip it every time.

The shared item slot mechanic and possible weapon proficiencies coupled with the fact that several Summon Monster candidates get summoned with Equipment seems to indicate to me, that it should be possible.

[NEVERMINDEDIT]
my search fu was weak:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/advanced PlayersGuidePlaytest/round2/uPDATESummoner

The one odd thing about that though, he explicably states "magic items". Which could be construed that non-magical items get summoned/dismissed with the Eidolon?

[STIlLANOTHERNEVERMIND]

It occurs to me, that this was a Playtest Thread. How relevant are the things in it still, if they were not addressed in the final rules upon release?

[Mighty Squash]

I'm not sure the equipment question has been dealt with outside of the playtest rules.