Just realized there is one class that totally outstrips all others.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Was a late night and after our session ended I was perusing the APG and started picking apart the summoner. About halfway through the section it hit me. Everyone focuses on the Eidelon. The Eidelon is a waste of time and completely hoses your character. Some quick scribbling and an hour later I realized that paizo might have unintentionally broken things a bit. The class ability "summon monster one" is the key. Check my work a bit if you will:

Halfling
20 CHr
18 Dex +4 init
12 Int
7 Wis
7 Str
9 Con

Begins life as wizard / diviner / foresight (always goes in surprise round)

exile and reactionary traits +4 total to init

Starting init is +9

Starting feat augmented summoning

At second level starts summoner path (he was treading water through level 1)He is now popping out monster summon 1 eight times per day as a standard action and they last minutes not rounds.

3rd level feat inproved init. +4

At 4th level character 1 wizzy/3 summoner can summon his own army and have it attacking the bad guys before they can literally do anything. (d20 +13 on init, d3 augmented mobs hitting you in the surprise round)

The ability IGNORES armor. You can platemail yourself up if you want.

You use the Eidelon as a packhorse. 1 point mount skill (since you are small) 4 points in flight and everything else in improved flight speed. At 20th level (1 lvl wizzy / 19 summoner) I make that a 440 movement speed.

1. You cannot be surprised
2. You get the d20's extra from the foresight
3. Your summoning cant be counterspelled
4. You can wear heavy armor if you want to
5. You still get a monsterous stack of useable spells out of the summoner line (if you want to cast them take off your armor)
6. As you crank up your charisma your ability to summon more per day goes up.
7. We are talking 10 - 11 "summon monster 9" summon spells that as you cast the new one the old damaged monsters fighting for you disappear and their replacments start chewing on the baddies. That has to be demoralizing.

I really can't see a reason to play any other class. Once he gets up a few levels, the only way to kill him is nuke him from space.


Not really the best way to do things as a Summoner.
Seriously unless you are a Master Summoner you can only have one Summon Monster SLA in effect at a time.

The stack of usable Spells is also not that "monstrous".

Counterspelling is never a real issue.

Everybody can wear heavy armor if he wants to,... the question is if he actually gets something out of it

Multiclassing as a Summoner? Also not a wise choice,there are better ways to boost your initiative.

Fazit:It really doesn´t compare to an Eidolon and buffing it up.


Is your character a master summoner? (If not I would suggest you do)

Liberty's Edge

Do trait bonuses stack? Exile and Reactionary both give a +2 trait bonus to initiative and I was under the impression they don't stack.


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centerpunch wrote:


exile and reactionary traits +4 total to init

Traits don't stack. You take higher as same type bonus.

People always seem to say things are broken when they forget the rules, wierd.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You also can't take Augment Summoning as your initial feat; you have to take Spell Focus (Conjuration) first.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Also, unless you take the Master Summoner or whichever archetype it is that allows you to have both your Eidolon out and use your Summon Monster ability, you get one or the other. The same archetype makes your eidolon progress at a slower rate. So yeah, not quite the build you think.


Oooh dumping Con eh?

Which poisons lower Con again? I'd have to ask my ninja player.

Dark Archive

I think the moral of the story here is "never make threads claiming 'I just discovered that x class is better than every other class,'" because people are going to tear you apart for it.

Sweet build though. And I think he/she meant that you could potentially have 3 monsters out by using the lower level summons once you get access to II & beyond. Still, Master Summoner would clearly be an improvement on that.

Grand Lodge

obadiah wrote:
Do trait bonuses stack? Exile and Reactionary both give a +2 trait bonus to initiative and I was under the impression they don't stack.

Bonuses of the same type do not stack save for the specifically listed exceptions of un-typed and dodge.


Ah yeah that is true. I apparently missed all the master summoner threads a while back as I don't really play summoners. The augment summoning does require a prereq. (See middle of the night character building up there) The wizzy addition does seem to be key to me. As such, guaranteeing you go first, that you always act in the surprise round, that you have a monster init to secure the first action in the surprise round and that your summoned crew doesn't have a chance to be preempted seems to be a pretty big thing to me. Ignoring armor seemed to me to be icing if you wanted to roll that way.


1. The summon monster ability can only produce one spell's worth of creatures at a time. The rest will have to be summoned via the spell if you want them to be active at the same time. If you take the Master Summoner archetype, though, all bets are off.

2. The diviner abilities are nice. But they're nice for a lot of builds, not just the summoner.

3. No matter how many monsters you summon, they can still take you out directly via ranged attacks and spells. Soft cover is soft.

4. LOL armor.

5. Your description of the high-level summoner makes it sound OP. I refer you to the hundreds of high-level builds posted on this site's forums to show exactly how easy it is to take down a high level summoner, particularly through ranged attacks, blast spells, teleportation, time stop, and so on. Not to mention simple spells like banishment. You can usually summon more than they can banish, but it'll eat through your reserves. It's powerful, but at best on par with a high level full-casty.


Odraude wrote:

Oooh dumping Con eh?

Which poisons lower Con again? I'd have to ask my ninja player.

Ha, I missed that part. And the answer is "a lot of them". Alternately, poison Str or Wis until he's immobile.

Also, 7 Wis? Hope you're pumping Will save some other way. You're one dominate person away from having to fight your own army.


What are his base stats?

Str 9-2 racial = 7 [-1 point]
Dex 16+2 racial = 18 [10 points]
Con 9 [-1 point] (no build that lowers constitution is overpower IMO)
Int 12 [2 points]
Wis 7 [-4 points]
Cha 17+2 racial+1 4th level increase [13 points]

Which adds up to 19 for me.

Lets see. So you conjure 1d3 minions in the surprise round if there ever is first round. Highest possible attack for 1st level minion is +5 (riding dog with augment summoning). Not impressive at 4th level but at least it is 17 hp road bump for enemies (average damage expected of CR 4 monster is 16 - there is a real chance of them bothering single opponent for a few rounds).

However, your character has something like Fortitude +1 saving throw bonus. Blindness. Hope you rolled 18+ on your prescience as without ability to see you cannot select destination square for the summons. And blindness has range four times longer than summon.


The one other piece that I did not know how it should be taken into account is that according to the book spell like abilities have no V,S or M requirements. So you just think about some mobs showing up and they do. So if you are wearing armor you sure as heck don't look like the caster who is causing all the trouble. Do the guys on the other side target ineffectual looking halfling fighters? And how do they target you if they have mobs on them? You put a stealth ability on this guy since you lose the +2 init and can he go hidden and mentally summon mobs on top of your crew? When he does how do the baddies locate him since he is hidden? Sounds like there might be a few ways to not be a target of opportunity whilst be a total PITA to the OPFOR. That going fisrt thing has to rock.


Based on the range issue, you are assuming some sort of long range standoff fight. Most of my adventuring, whether in city or dungeon seems to degenerate into up close brawling with crap flying everywhere unless you can bottleneck the OPFOR or get them tied up with some kind of CC. Oh and a rat makes a nice familiar for the wizzy part as he gives you a +2 to your fort save.


As a last note. The lookout team feat is so synergystic with the diviner it makes ya want to cry. As long as you stay together your crew never gets jumped.


Not really over powered, but it is fricking sweet!


centerpunch wrote:
The one other piece that I did not know how it should be taken into account is that according to the book spell like abilities have no V,S or M requirements. So you just think about some mobs showing up and they do. So if you are wearing armor you sure as heck don't look like the caster who is causing all the trouble. Do the guys on the other side target ineffectual looking halfling fighters? And how do they target you if they have mobs on them? You put a stealth ability on this guy since you lose the +2 init and can he go hidden and mentally summon mobs on top of your crew? When he does how do the baddies locate him since he is hidden? Sounds like there might be a few ways to not be a target of opportunity whilst be a total PITA to the OPFOR. That going fisrt thing has to rock.

Unless you're the only summoner in the world, you won't fool a lot of moderately intelligent enemies by being the guy in armor around a bunch of summoned monsters. Especially as they can see you directing traffic, so to speak--you have to tell summoned monsters what to do if you want them to do anything but the general "attack my enemies!" command.

Edit: By the way, I'm not trying to pooh-pooh summoners in general. I'm a huge fan of them, especially the evolutionist, as they have that whole FF thing going for them.

Dark Archive

The master summoner archetype does what yours does, minus the diviner powers (which admittedly are pretty sweet). Keep in mind also that there is no need to max out charisma, especially with the master summoner, who gains 5 + charisma modifier number of summon monster, rather than 3 +.

The build I would go with is as follows:

Gnome summoner (master summoner)

Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 16

Feat Improved Initiative

Traits Collector (Spellcraft), Excitable

You still have 8 uses of your spell-like ability per day, and you gain Augment Summoning as a bonus feat at level 2. On top of that, your stunted eidolon can be a packmule/extra set of eyes/trapmonkey while you still supplement your allies with a summoned creature.

Initiative is +8 at first level, and an eventual aim is to gain as a weapon a +1 dueling cestus (if my math is right, the cost comes to 16,301gp for another +4 to initiative). If you want even higher initiative, grab Noble Scion at first level, and pick up Improved Initiative at level 3.

Keep in mind you might get really bored of this really soon, and your fellow players may roll their eyes when you summon your third celestial eagle for a total of 9 attack rolls per turn.


Actually my "players" would probably hate me for it since 95 percent of the time I am the GM. I get to play an adventure path (my first time really playing in forever) so I was really jazzed to dig through the books from a player perspective. Mostly I have been reading them from a GM perspective so character optimization isn't really key.

Dark Archive

centerpunch wrote:
Actually my "players" would probably hate me for it since 95 percent of the time I am the GM. I get to play an adventure path (my first time really playing in forever) so I was really jazzed to dig through the books from a player perspective. Mostly I have been reading them from a GM perspective so character optimization isn't really key.

In any case, as others have mentioned, you do have errors in your original build (Augment Summoning without the prerequisite, two traits that give initiative, and the eidolon can't be a mount or a packmule if you're planning on summoning); there are also poor choices like dumping constitution and wisdom (although dumping wisdom hurts less than constitution because of the summoner's fast will save and halfling luck).

I would not be scared of a build like this; it's quite the glass cannon. What do you do when fighting summoned creatures? Target the summoner.

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