a group of 5 (a monk, ranger, barbarian, cavalier(hound master all lvl2) and inquisitor) fought a necrophidius as a BBG at the end of a smallish dungeon.So they where pretty bet up. I had planned one two or there going down if it wasn't a complete TPK. this how it brook down
round 1:2 pc bet the NEC. 1 did some damage NEC. d.o.d. and dazed every one but the cavalier and the monk for 2 rounds
round 2:monk and cavalier did some damage the NEC. paralysis the monk
round 3:cavalier did some damage NEC. missed
round 4:players wake up cavalier dose some damage and ranger power attacks for the kill
I was said face
but was this a "dies are dies" moment or do I need to add more presser on my 5 man party after being able to take a necrophidius after a small dungeon full of cr1-3 undead
how much damage would a extra pc do to the APL vs. CR math though?
Several lower-CR monsters are generally more challenging than one high-CR monster. Unless the CR is significantly higher, a party of five will have no trouble to kill a single enemy in just a few rounds.
Also,
Remember, CR = APL is a routine fight, APL+1 is challenging, APL+2 is hard and APL+3 is ohmygoshohmygosh.
Interesting, Gorbacz. Is there an official rule reference that I haven't seen yet, or is it just a gererally agreed fact?
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Guidelines for encounter design.
An additional PC not only increases damage, but also tips the action economy in PCs favour. And as Caboodle says, single tough enemies are usually less dangerous than multiple weaker ones, due to aforementioned action economy (and existence of SoD/SoS attacks). Of course, there are exceptions (say, a Demilich will ruin your day much easier than a bunch of lower CR things).
Guidelines for encounter design.
That was fast... thanks!
well a nest of them would have been a little silly even when I am in my most TPKing mood
How about one necrophidius and some low-CR undead like skeletons to keep the party busy?
You could put a necrophidius with a nest of stirges or something. OR,...have it join in on a group of skeletons or maybe ghouls or something that the party is in the middle of fighting.
I agree; CR=APL+1 isn't going to be that climactic, and the more party members there are, the lonelier a solo BBEG is going to be.
Single creatures are always a bad idea to use against a party of 4 or 5. The party gets gets to act 4 or 5 times (once for every party member) for every round the single enemy gets. Of course that enemy looses. And an enemy with a CR 1 higher then the parties level is no where near a threatening encounter.
A CR of the parties level +3 or +4 is better for a serious challenge. A necrophidius with the Advanced (+1 CR) and Giant (+1 CR) templates may have been a better idea then just a normal one. (Multiple creatures would still have been better, though.)
Advanced Giant Necrophidius
XP 1600
Large Construct
Str 24, Dex 19, Con -, Int -, Wis 15, Cha 5
AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 16
Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +3
Combat Maneuver Bonus: +11; CMD 25 (can't be tripped)
Attack: bite +9 (2d6+10 plus paralysis)
Everything else should say the same.
well the next challenge is a Akata themed zombie Apocalypse and i need a brood mother type thing they should be lvl4 by the
(on knees) i just want to strike fear in the hearts of my PCs
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What point buy are the players on, or whats the average point buy value of their dice rolls?
I tend to treat 5 players on 20 point buy as APL+1 for a start. But Gorbacz has the main right of it- you don't just match CR to a party's level for a tough fight (although to be honest, with the amount of threads that essentially boil down to people who've done just this and then say CR system is broken, perhaps it should have been designed that way).
That and action economy. 5 actions for every one of your BBEG. This is why I love the Gibbering Mouther, it has several tactical options, a free action blinding as well as a group save or suck... *grin*.
the 5 class i mentioned with standard point buy and about 450gp worth of gear so no magic yet (or ever i don't pass it out or let them buy but they could make it)
15 this was my attempt to lower the power of a 5pc group also low magic
Low magic doesn't really mean much at level 2. Even in high magic worlds they'll not have the resources the buy anything yet.
15 pts is ok though, as was said that's what the CR is build around. But since its 1 PC more, you might have to sometimes add another enemy to the mix to keep the fight interesting, as you noticed with that fight.
To put a finer point on what several people have already mentioned: Don't use single-foe encounters for anything you expect to be dramatic, tension-filled, et cetera. Even at APL +3, that lonely BBEG was going down hard and fast. Your adventure's final encounter deserves to be a knockdown, drag out fight pitting the PCs against multiple foes.
well sents i going with a brood mother type thing what if i was to fluff up a few monsters as different parts of the same monster (dragon age brood mother in mind) or am i reinventing the hydra/wheel
There are some exceptions, but yeah, solo bosses get stomped as a rule--unless you can even the odds somewhat.
We had an interesting boss fight with a party of 5 level 3 folks. Half of them were inside a house on the second floor, and the rest were outside the front door when the fight began. This boss could fly, and it knew about the PCs upstairs, so the first thing it did was hop onto the roof, where it had cover from ranged attacks from the grounded PCs. The upstairs PCs didn't know what was happening when they heard a loud "THUMP" above their head. Next round, the window bursts and Big Scary rushes in at the Cavalier's face.
So, one of the ground PCs gets the idea to climb up to the window and flank the bad guy. Took a couple of tries, but he made it up and managed to anger the boss enough to get knocked off the ledge. At this point, Big Scary was pretty banged up, and so were at least two of the PCs. So Big Scary made a break for it, and would have gotten away if the squishy wizard didn't look like such an easy target. It swooped down to attack the wizard, but the other ground PCs were ready for him. *splat*
The moral of this story is, divide and conquer. Make sure that the BBEG has some home-field or otherwise tactical advantage, and even a 1-on-5 or 2-on-5 can be a challenge. Of course, sometimes it's more fun to give the PCs a chance to surprise the BBEG and take him down before he can blink. Just make sure it doesn't happen every time.
well sents i going with a brood mother type thing what if i was to fluff up a few monsters as different parts of the same monster (dragon age brood mother in mind) or am i reinventing the hydra/wheel
No, that's a good idea. I wish PF had statted hydras that way. I may take a crack at it myself.
i still like the look of the group of heroes vs the crazed beast so iconic just want them to sweat wile they do it