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I am trying to figure out where my groups kingdom should be BP wise at different sizes and points in the game. If anyone would mind including approx BP for either different sizes of the kingdom or different books, along with # of cities at that time, it would be immensely helpful.
My players did not like the idea of magic items generating most of a kingdoms BP (nor did I), so we are experimenting with alternate methods, but it would be good to know what my benchmarks are for BP income.
Any info posted would be helpful, but if possible posts showing progression would be most helpful. Progression could be either by # of hexes or by book.
Weeeell, that *really* varies by campaign. The "kingdom in the background" sidebars give you some guidance, the rest is by extrapolation. However, from what I've seen from other campaign journals, the "sidebar kingdom" is very conservative in terms of estimated BP income et al.
At a guess the longest amount of game time passes during Chapters 2 and 3 while the expansion rate is very slow. It snowballs rapidly after Chapter 4 and concludes after Chapter 5 with the final size laregely govorned by the GM's decision regarding how much of Pitax the PC kingdom is able to annex. By my estimate the entirety of Pitax encompasses ~122 hexes in its own right. By the book Irovetti assumed the room some decade or so earlier than when the expeditions are sent out from Restov.
The largest total size the PC kingdom could reasonably expect to attain after Chapter 5 is ~250 hexes. Anything beyond this is outside the scope of the written material.
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So what sort of BP should be generated at say 25 hexes, 50 hexes, 75 hexes, and 100 hexes? I am trying to make sure that my substitutes for the magic item economy, aka trade pacts, merchant houses, industry, resource bonuses for areas outside the cities, etc equal about what they should be making without them. Other than running a separate game that is just the kingdom building, I don't know any way to get an idea of what sort of output is normal. I was hoping if anyone had it recorded or remembered, they could help out. Even if they are general figures, thats better than what I have right now :)
Our kingdom is size 55 and generating about 100bp a month now. 3 cities with 8 districts total. At size 25 we maybe made 30bp a month at most due to slower build progression.
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Our kingdom is size 55 and generating about 100bp a month now. 3 cities with 8 districts total. At size 25 we maybe made 30bp a month at most due to slower build progression.
We've just started the second book so I'm very interested in how everyone else's games are going. They've been very slow and deliberate thus far.
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when we were at about 2-2.5 years in and at the end of book 4. we had 37 hexes with econ of 63, loyalty 58, and stabil 62. only 4 cities and those being stagg's bluff, varnhold, tatzlford, and ft drelev. I think we were getting about 40bp. lots of learning as we go, with mistakes made. also out of 5 players only 2 have been mostly working on building with some input from other 3.
Lots of spoilers of course.
My players are 2 years in game time into it and their kingdom is roughly 14 hexes, with 2 cities, the capital Svenheim and Tanzelford, they have roughly a +30 to economy and stability with a dc of about 29. They generate on average about 9 BP a month. I have not allowed the rule about selling magic items. I have also started using the mass combat rles as early as the end of book 2 using DM Dudemeister's rules for the monster kingdom. My players keep a small standing army in the capital at a reduced cost of 1 BP for a 200 man/200 kobold army with several tactics they did not want to loose. We are 3 months of building phases from the start of book 3. In one third ap it does say something about waiting for players to achieve a kindgom size of 50 or so, but my players are very slow to expand and would rather break up building phases during the adventure rather than between them.
I allow them to generate extra BP by looting armies they fight mostly breaking even for having a perpetual army standing in the capital. The PC general has pushed the idea of a standing army and the council has approved due to Tiger Lords in the west, Mivon to the south, possible civil war in the north, and centaurs in the east.
We are also using the river nations kingdom building guide, with some minor modifications like no summoned armies.
During the first 5 years of kingdom building I denied the magic item component.
We count 2 river hexes as 1 road hex.
We had trade agreements with Mivon and Restov, and made a roll everymonth that looked like the magic item roll, same buildings and mechanics etc. That duplicated that component.
Kingdom size was small in the beginning, but I made the mistake of letting the rules out to the (literal) lawyers and the car salesman at the table. They expanded very slowly to keep their control DC manageable.
Benchmarks are hard to quantify since the dice make for swingy results. The KingDom
Events table absolutely battered them in year 4 with multiple, successive bad rolls. I found I had to fudge once or twice to keep the rolls from breaking the kingdom that year.
Cities are much better than hexes with the basic rules.
So cities have a huge effect on this, my guys would have put a city every 9 miles if they could.
That said after they had gamed the system, they were generating about 50 BP pretty much always with a tiny <10 hex kingdom with 3 cities. As they've gotten bigger it's gotten worse and they can generate 100's of BP per month.
Admittedly I've used almost all of Jason Nelson's modifiers to the basic rules with quite a few of my own. The end result is that without external game pressures the kingdom is more than self sufficient at 187 hexes with 14 cities and 23 districts. It seems almost impossible for these guys to blow a roll now.
I've personally gotten bored with it but my coDM, Gerry runs that part of the campaign.
My suggestion, is to not let them run at a negative BP for any extended period, say +4 Economy checks. If they get hosed on rolls give a little benefit that puts them back at par or just a little behind. It's almost Impossible for me to quantify what is normal since my group is most assuredly not normal.
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I appreciate all the input, and hopefully more people will chime in. Even without hard numbers, just some feedback on the growth process and "what happens when" is very useful.
Zag, I plan to do something similar to what you did, having a building like a guildhall that allows the construction of trading houses. Each trading house can generate BP similar to selling a magic item or can be used instead to anchor a trade route (lesser recurring consistent BP) with another country or a noble/merchant house in Brevoy. This does several things: replaces magic item economy(which only bothers me due to fluff reasons, not mechanical) and provides impetus for the party to participate in Brevic politics.
I was thinking of allowing 1 trading house per every other city district, which means a fully developed city could have 5 of them. Combined with extra bonuses I am giving the party for natural resource development outside the cities (like mines, timber mills, etc) hopefully will approximate the same income as magic item sales down the road.
If anyone has any particular experience with replacing magic item sales or creating trade route rules, I would love to hear more about it.
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I would rather like to hear more about the trade route rules because thats something I would like to throw in myself.
I haven't as of yet thrown the magic item rules out of the game, because it makes for an interesting way to give characters wealth perhaps a little beyond their level, but also there is an inherent risk for withdrawing those funds.
Essentially, if they wait a long time and keep siphoning off money, then have the world continue on, because this is not a static world after all, things are happening in the background all the time. Therefore yes they are more powerful, but then again their enemies are better prepared. Its 6six of one and half a dozen of the other.
My people want to build an adventurers guild hall so the kingdom and whoever else wants to post things that need help. Did anyone do this? It sounds like an awesome idea. Easier to get them to 'adventure' for their own kingdom without it looking weird.