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Ok, here is my half-baked Templar:
...
Hey Byrd, here's what I came up with for you.
While most knightly orders are concerned with honor and noble combat, certain cavaliers seek a more divine path and align themselves with a temple and deity most appropriate to their outlook. Knight templars are servants of a higher power, roaming the lands in search of the devout, while removing those who seek to weaken or destroy the faith. While they are not solely a militant arm of the church, knight templars can deal a crushing blow in the heat of battle, or channel their faith into divine spells or healing energies. Though not as heavily armored as other cavaliers, the knight templar has their own way of ensuring victory in battle and the pursuits of the faith.
Primary: Cavalier.
Secondary: Cleric.
Hit Dice: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The knight templar selects three cleric skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal cavalier class skills. The knight templar gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The knight templar is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Knightly Devotion (Sp): Beginning at 1st level, a knight templar can cast a small number of divine spells as a spell-like ability. The knight templar must select a domain that belongs to his deity, but gains no school powers. A knight templar’s selection of knightly devotion spells is limited to those from his domain. A knight templar can cast the 1st–level spell from his domain his 1st–level devotion.
At 5th level, a knight templar can cast the 2nd–level spell from his domain as his 2nd–level devotion.
At 9th level, a knight templar can cast the 3rd–level spell from his domain as his 3rd level devotion.
At 13th level, a knight templar can cast the 4th–level spell from his domain as his 4th level devotion.
At 17th level, a knight templar can cast the 5th–level spell from his domain as his 5th level devotion.
When casting a 1st–, 2nd–, or 3rd–level devotion spell, the knight templar expends one daily use of his knightly devotion ability, while casting a 4th– or 5th–level devotion spells expends two daily uses of his knightly devotion ability. A knight templar can use his 1st–level or higher knightly devotion a number of times per day equal to 1/2 his knight templar level. A knight templar has a caster level equal to his knight templar level. This ability replaces tactician, banner, greater tactician, greater banner, and master tactician.
Templar’s Challenge (Su): At 1st level, a gunpowder wrangler gains the cleric’s channel energy ability, except that the amount of damage dealt is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every three templar levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 4th, 3d6 at 7th, and so on) to a maximum of 7d6 at 19th level. The target of the knight templar’s channeled energy receives a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the knight templar's level + the knight templar’s Charisma modifier. This ability can be use a number of times per day equal to 3 + the knight templar’s Charisma modifier.
Alternatively, as a swift action, a templar can choose one target to challenge within a 30-foot radius the knight templar. Challenging a foe requires much of the knight templar’s concentration. The knight templar takes a –2 penalty to his Armor Class, except against attacks made by the target of his templar’s challenge. When the knight templar makes a successful melee attack against the target of his challenge, he may choose to expend two uses of his templar’s challenge ability to channel the power of his faith into his weapon as if it had the conductive weapon ability. struck opponent suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the channeled energy. The challenge remains in effect for a number of rounds equal to the knight templar’s Charisma modifier (minimum 1), or until the knight templar has channeled energy through a successful melee attack against the target of his templar’s challenge, whichever comes first. Each cavalier’s challenge also includes another effect which is listed in the section describing the cavalier’s order. This ability replaces challenge.
Order: This is exactly like the cavalier’s ability of the same name, except that the templar must select the Order of the Temple Bastion.
Spontaneous Casting: At 3rd level, a knight templar gains the cleric’s spontaneous casting ability, except that the knight templar can only channel stored spell energy from his knightly devotions into healing spells that he did not prepare ahead of time. This ability replaces cavalier’s charge.
Aura (Su): At 4th level, a knight templar gains the cleric’s aura ability. This ability replaces expert trainer.
Bonus Feats: This is exactly like the cavalier’s ability of the same name, except that the knight templar can select these bonus feats those listed as channeling feats, combat feats, or teamwork feats. The knight templar must meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats as normal.
Grand Knight (Su): At 20th level, if the knight templar confirms a critical hit on a templar challenge when channeling energy, the target receives the maximum amount of channeling damage. The target of the knight templar’s challenge receives a Will save to halve the damage as normal. In addition, a knight templar can expend three uses of his knightly devotion to cast his 6th–level domain spell once per day. This ability replaces supreme charge.
SWAP TABLE
Challenge = Templar’s challenge
Bonus feat = Choose either a combat, channeling, or teamwork feat,
Tactician, Banner, Greater Tactician, Greater Banner, Master Tactician = Knightly devotion
Supreme charge = Grand templar
Table: Knight Templar
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Knightly devotion (1st), mount, order, templar’s challenge 1d6
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Order ability
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Spontaneous channeling
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Aura, templar’s challenge 2d6
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Knightly devotion (2nd)
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Bonus feat
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Templar’s challenge 3d6
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Order ability
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Knightly devotion (3rd)
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Templar’s challenge 4d6
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Mighty charge
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Bonus feat, demanding challenge
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Knightly devotion (4th), templar’s challenge 5d6
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Greater banner
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Order ability
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 Templar’s challenge 6d6
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Knightly devotion (5th)
18th +18/+8/+13/+3 +11 +6 +11 Bonus feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Templar’s challenge 7d6
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Grand knight (6th)
A cavalier who belongs to the order of the temple bastion has dedicated himself to the faith of one of the deities, and is chosen as a special servant for one of its temples. Cavaliers of this order labor to defend the patrons of the faith, further the tenets of his church, live in accordance to those tenets, and ensure that the interests of the church are protected. This order complements the Knight Templar multiclass archetype.
Edicts: The cavalier must adhere to the strictures of the faith, place the interests of the church above all else, punish those who seek to slay the agents of the faith, provide support to the church’s hierarchy, and remain vigilant against conspiracies meant to destroy the faith.
Challenge: Whenever an order of the temple bastion cavalier issues a challenge, he receives a +1 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls made against the target of his challenge if the target makes an attack against a target other than the cavalier. This bonus lasts for 1 minute. The bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses.
Skills: An order of the temple bastion cavalier adds Knowledge (planes) (Int) and Knowledge (religion) (Int) to his list of class skills. An order of the temple bastion cavalier can make Knowledge (religion) skill checks untrained. If he has ranks in the skill, he receives a bonus on the check equal to 1/2 his cavalier level (minimum +1) when making attempts to identify religious symbols or servants of another faith.
Order Abilities: A cavalier belonging to the order of temple bastion gains the following abilities as he increases in level.
Chosen Piety (Ex): At 2nd level, the cavalier must choose one domain from among those belonging to his deity and gains the domain’s 1st level ability.
True Devotion (Su): At 8th level, the cavalier gains his chosen domain’s 8th level ability.
Unshakable Faith (Su): At 15th level, the cavalier’s weapons are treated as aligned (either chaotic, evil, good, or law) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, according to the alignment of his deity. Any attack made against an enemy within 10 feet of him is treated as aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This ability functions only while the cavalier is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.
Looks good! Couple of questions.
-Are they spells or spell likes? How many casts do they get?
- I like the challenge, but I think the first half of the ability should be a positive or negative burst like the cleric, while the second half remains as a single target smite.
- I would take out the challenge bonus from the Order of the Temple Bastion section.
What do you think?
Looks good! Couple of questions.
-Are they spells or spell likes? How many casts do they get?
- I like the challenge, but I think the first half of the ability should be a positive or negative burst like the cleric, while the second half remains as a single target smite.
- I would take out the challenge bonus from the Order of the Temple Bastion section.What do you think?
1) They are spells cast as a sepll-like ability, thus the (Sp). As for casts per fday...
When casting a 1st–, 2nd–, or 3rd–level devotion spell, the knight templar expends one daily use of his knightly devotion ability, while casting a 4th– or 5th–level devotion spells expends two daily uses of his knightly devotion ability. A knight templar can use his 1st–level or higher knightly devotion a number of times per day equal to 1/2 his knight templar level. A knight templar has a caster level equal to his knight templar level. This ability replaces tactician, banner, greater tactician, greater banner, and master tactician.
Essentially, he can use his Knightly Devotions ability a number of times per day = 1/2 his level. So a 10th level Knight Templar can use knightly devotions 5/day. She could use those to cast five 3rd levels spells, five 2nd, two 3rd, one 2nd, and two 1st, etc. Casting 1st to 3rd devotiosn uses 1 daily use, casting 4th-5th uses two daily uses.
2) Um...it does.
Templar’s Challenge (Su): At 1st level, a knight templar gains the cleric’s channel energy ability, except that the amount of damage dealt is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every three templar levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 4th, 3d6 at 7th, and so on) to a maximum of 7d6 at 19th level. ...
It says he gains the cleric's Channel Energy ability, which means it channels positive or negative nergy according to deity or knight templar's alignment.
3) It's an Order, like any other, you dont just remove the challenge bonus. This order isn't just for the Knight Templar, any cavalier can also choose it. The bonus can be changed to something else though. Why do you want it removed, or do you mean remove the KnightTemplar gaining the bonus from the Order?
Lol, sorry about the first two points. I misread the heck out of them! In fact just ignore that whole post. After reading your reply, everything makes perfect sense.
You did a bang-up job here. I'll see if I can come up with another challenge for you. Keep up the good work!
Here is an idea for a rogue that borrows from the monk, but is very much a rogue.
Sneak attack gets a nerf that adds only 1/2 lvl (min 1) damage, but the rogue doesn't need to flank, just be threatening a target that an ally also threatens. Call it an opportunistic strike if you will.
To off set this some, he will also get flurry of blows with light weapons only. You can call this 1000 cuts.
Instead of uncanny dodge and the improved version, give him the monks slow fall ability.
At lvl 4, 8, 12, and 16th lvl. Give them something similar to a ki pool that lets them:
- high jump (as long as there is 1 ki in the pool) @ lvl 4
- increase speed by 20 ft (1 ki) @ lvl 4
- +4 dodge to AC (1 ki) @ lvl 8
- re roll a failed disable device, sleight of hand, or bluff check (2ki) @ lvl 12
- re roll a failed save (2 ki) @ lvl 16
This would replace the rogue talent at these lvls.
Would this be feasible at all?
Do you guys do PrCs? Like take a base class and sub in PrC abilities? Is it on the horizon and are you accepting early submissions?As Raider said. At least in this thread, we're all about MCAs. I am personally interested in the design philosophy of creating PrCs as I have one in particular I want to work on. Perhaps you could start another thread Byrd for PrCs...
Working on it as of now:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2piiw?PrCs-as-base-classes
I've been using this was a tool that Orthos was able to provide that turned some of the PrCs into Archetypes.
Here is an idea for a rogue that borrows from the monk, but is very much a rogue.
Sneak attack gets a nerf that adds only 1/2 lvl (min 1) damage, but the rogue doesn't need to flank, just be threatening a target that an ally also threatens. Call it an opportunistic strike if you will.
To off set this some, he will also get flurry of blows with light weapons only. You can call this 1000 cuts.
Instead of uncanny dodge and the improved version, give him the monks slow fall ability.
At lvl 4, 8, 12, and 16th lvl. Give them something similar to a ki pool that lets them:
- high jump (as long as there is 1 ki in the pool) @ lvl 4
- increase speed by 20 ft (1 ki) @ lvl 4
- +4 dodge to AC (1 ki) @ lvl 8
- re roll a failed disable device, sleight of hand, or bluff check (2ki) @ lvl 12
- re roll a failed save (2 ki) @ lvl 16This would replace the rogue talent at these lvls.
Would this be feasible at all?
I'll get back to you tonight on this one. I think I have a good solution for this.
Out of curiosity... how many hundreds of MCAs are there now?
Lots Flak, Lots! Look at the List on the Wiki. Aside from the 1 or 2 that is currently being worked on here, they all at least have a name and placeholder on the list.
According to my count,(which may be off by 1 or 2), including fully critiqued, uncritiqued, and uncreated placeholders, ther is a whopping 182 MCAs on the Wiki list. That's like creating 182 new base classes.
I have fround that those who come to our thread have some great ideas for MCAs. It's an awesome source for content, where we don't necessarily come up with the concepts, but we can organize, tweak, and meld things into a workable MCA.
What am I doing wrong? I only counted 82.
Here's your Rogue/Monk amalgamation I worked out, Byrd. Used the Qinggong Ki Powers to work in some of your other abilities as choices for individual PCs.
Primary: Rogue.
Secondary: Monk.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The shadow monk selects three monk skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The shadow monk gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The shadow monk is proficient with all simple weapons, plus plus the hand crossbow, handaxe, kama, nunchaku, rapier, sai, sap, shortbow, short sword, shuriken, siangham, and temple sword*. A shadow monk is proficient with light armor, but not with shields. When wearing medium armor, heavy armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a shadow monk loses his flurry of blows abilities. (*Advanced Player’s Guide)
Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that a shadow monk deals extra damage as indicated on Table: Shadow Monk.
Rogue Talents: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that a shadow monk gains a rogue talent at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a shadow monk gains the monk’s unarmed strike ability and deals unarmed damage as shown on Table: Shadow Monk. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): At 4th level, a shadow monk gains the monk’s flurry of blows ability. This ability replaces the rogue talents gained at 4th, 10th, and 16th level.
Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a shadow monk gains the monk’s ki pool ability. In addition to the normal ki pool abilities, the shadow monk can spend 1 ki point to perform one of the following abilities.
At 6th level, whenever a shadow monk makes a successful unarmed attack (including flurry of blows), she can spend 1 ki point as an immediate action to deal sneak attack damage in place of her normal unarmed damage. This sneak attack damage is only applied to a single attack. In addition, by spending 1 ki point, the shadow monk gains the ghost touch weapon property with all attacks made with a weapon she is proficient with, or her unarmed strike (including flurry of blows) for 1 minute.
At 10th level, a shadow monk can spend 2 ki points to reroll a single failed Bluff, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth skill check. The new roll must be taken.
At 16th level, a shadow monk can spend 3 ki points to reroll a single failed saving throw. The new roll must be taken.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.
Ki Powers: Starting at 5th level, a shadow monk gains the monk’s qinggong archetype ki power ability. Ki powers are abilities that draw on the power of a shadow monk’s ki and allows her to select several abilities that expend ki points to use. These powers are divided into three categories: feats, monk abilities, and spells. A shadow monk can choose one of the following ki powers at 5th level and every three levels thereafter.
5th-Level Ki Powers
Acrobatic Steps (1 ki point)
Feather step (self only, 1 ki point)
Slow fall (monk ability, 0 ki points)
Vanish (self only, 1 ki point)
8th-Level Ki Powers
High jump (monk ability, 1 ki point)
Invisibility (self only, 2 ki points)
Sidestep, † (1 ki point)
11th-Level Ki Powers
Gliding Steps, † (1 ki point)
Shadow step (1 ki point)
Spider Step (1 ki point)
14th-Level Ki Powers[/b]
Improved Blind-Fight, † (1 ki point)
Shadowy Haven (2 ki points)
17th-Level Ki Powers
Abundant step (monk ability, 2 ki points)
Greater Blind-Fight, † (2 ki points)
Greater invisibility (self only, 3 ki points)
20th-Level Ki Powers
Blinding Critical (3 ki points)
Shadow walk (3 ki points)
This ability replaces sneak attack 2d6, 5d6 and 8d6, and rogue talents gained at 8th and 20th level.
Advanced Talents: This is exactly the same as the rogue ability of the same name, except that a shadow monk may select Uncanny Dodge or Improved Uncanny Dodge as an advanced talent. A shadow monk must select uncanny dodge before selecting improved uncanny dodge.
Perfect Strike (Su): This is exactly like the rogue’s master strike ability, except that whenever the shadow monk makes a successful sneak attack against a creature that is immune to sneak attacks, she can spend 4 ki points to deal her sneak attack damage against that creature. This sneak attack damage is only applied to a single attack. In addition, a shadow monk is always considered to have the ghost touch weapon property when making with weapon and unarmed attacks.
SWAP TABLE
Trapfinding = Unarmed strike
Rogue talents (4/10/16) = Flurry of blows
Uncanny dodge/Improved uncanny dodge = Ki pool
Rogue Talent (8/20), Sneak attack (2d6/5d6/8d6) = Ki powers (as qinggong monk)
Master strike = Perfect strike
Table: Shadow Monk
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Unarm
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Flurry of Blows Dmg*
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Sneak attack +1d6, unarmed strike — 1d4
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Evasion, rogue talent — 1d4
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Sneak attack +2d6 — 1d4
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Flurry of blows, ki pool (magic) +2/+2 1d6
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Ki power +3/+3 1d6
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Rogue talent +4/+4/–1 1d6
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Sneak attack +3d6 +5/+5/+0 1d6
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Ki power +6/+6/+1/+1 1d8
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Sneak attack +4d6 +7/+7/+2/+2 1d8
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Rogue talent +8/+8/+3/+3 1d8
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Ki power +9/+9/+4/+4/–1 1d8
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 1d10
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Sneak attack +5d6 +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 1d10
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Ki power, rogue talent +12/+12/+7/+7/+2 1d10
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Sneak attack +6d6 +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 1d10
16th +12/+6/+2 +5 +10 +10 +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/–1 2d6
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Ki power +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0 2d6
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Rogue talent +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1 2d6
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Sneak attack +7d6 +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2 2d6
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Ki power, perfect strike +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 2d8
What am I doing wrong? I only counted 82.
You are probably only counting those under the Ultimate MultiClass Archetypes link, which presents ONLY those that are completely critiqued.
Off to the left on the nav bar is a link, called MCA Primary Class List. That and the Alphabetized list show ALL of them, critiqued or not. :D
If you haven;t looked at that list yet, then prepare to be amazed!!!!
Ok, I'm tracking now!
The Astral Bombardier mentions that its fragile eidolon has a d6 rather than a d8 for its hit die -- but a standard eidolon has a d10 for its hit die.
Also, because Pathfinder ties hit die size to BAB progression, the fragile eidolon should mention what its BAB progression is (since I think the intention was for it to retain the full BAB progression of an outsider).
Good catch, David. We'll look into that.
Listed the Rune Mage and Clockwork Mage for later review...
Still uncertain after all these years why there needs to be multiclass archetypes as opposed to just regular archetypes, and specifically what the two classes entail...
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All archetypes do is replace certain ability with another theme/flavor related one. Typically only 3-4 or so such replacements.
Our MCAs are designed to provide the gestalt multiclass flavor within the PF mechanics and structures. Sometimes there are many replacements, or alterations to an existing feature. Other times, there are completely new features needed to establish fleshout the flavor and roll of particular MCA. These are true amalgamations of two existing classes into a novel 20th level mutliclass archetype. I realize our method is not so "plug and play" like true archetypes, but it allows us (and others) a process in which to combine two classes into a new version of the two. The same two classes, say Fighter/Cleric, can be combined in two completely different ways, resulting in two separate and distinct archetypes. One may focus more on a militant flavor, while another a more divine flavor.
Archetypes are great for those who want a quick play method, but as we've seen through our 3 threads and over 2500 posts, there are various people who are looking for a multiclass method that can be tweaked to what they want in their own version of an multiclass character. Primarily, it allows for more unique class combinations and one's personal vision of their particular multiclass character to become a reality. I'm very sure what you might view as the quintessential Wizard/Rogue is far different that what I might picture it.
For myself, most of the MCAs I develop are rooted in old 2E AD&D multiclass characters, and the creativity required to play that version. The archetype system has helped greatly with that, and so we expanded it further into a more indepth and encompassing process. I can't speak for my colleagues, but it's the old creativity, sense of fun and adventure, and need to mold one's character into a unique and indepth entity that I expereienced in 2E that I'm trying to recreate, maintain, and rejuvenate within the PF system.
Whether ther is a need for all this, only the people can decide that. Regardless, this is something we are all committed to and believe there is a place for what we do, otherwise the five of us who make up MultiCLass Productions, in conjunctions with the various fans who have submitted their own ideas, and joined us in our endeavor. Following the rules are great, but its creativity within those rules that truly enhance the roleplaying experience, and increases the joy of developing, playing, and evolving a character.
That's why I'm here doing this. I want everyone to beable to enjoy there character's as much as I did my own. EVERY character I ever played has his own story, and if asked, I could tell you about everyone of them.
But I'm just speaking for myself. I'll let my colleaques speak for themselves.
Thanks for the detailed response!
I suppose then that the primary purpose of the Multi-class portion of MCAs is to properly frame it in your mind as to what the archetype is. The stickler for me has just been that I am fine with calling archetypes that merge the concepts of two classes as just an archetype, but I think I'll remember this one far more easily.
Was there ever that PDF released that I think I remember hearing plans about?
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Hey Cheapy!
Elghinn suggested we speak for ourselves, so I'll just say, as far as I can tell MCAs are just archetypes. They're just more detailed than many, and thus we provide fine-grained explanations of what is changed, along with a progression chart (normally only presented alongside full classes or alternate classes). Calling our work something different - multiclass archetypes - is both a way to explain our mission and to brand our content, but I think that's about it. The name doesn't mean much else.
So yeah. They're just archetypes.
But archetypes designed for a specific purpose, and grouped together under the name for that purpose. :)
The PDFs are still to come. Cureently we are finishing up a number of MCAs so that we have at least 15 MCAs in each of the PDFs we'll put out, one each for a partcular group, such as Divine Champions (Anp, Clr, Inq, Ora, Pal), Nature's Warriors (Bbn, Drd, Rgr), etc. that sort of thing. Still working out details.
Thanks for stopping by Cheapy. Yep, I just tell people they are archetypes. I freely borrow and trade between the Primary and Secondary classes without worrying too much about a particular class having its powers/abilities or role/ limelight stolen.
We're merely offering options, extending the creative boundaries of each class's core concept, the MCA approach is a very useful tool/framework on which to strap new abilities to a well worn chassis. It's the new synergistic abilities that are the most fun...
The PDFs are still to come. Cureently we are finishing up a number of MCAs so that we have at least 15 MCAs in each of the PDFs we'll put out, one each for a partcular group, such as Divine Champions (Anp, Clr, Inq, Ora, Pal), Nature's Warriors (Bbn, Drd, Rgr), etc. that sort of thing. Still working out details.
Which classes are you light on? I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and get to work.
Dire Blade:
rogue- base, witch- backer.
Saves- ref, will.
6 skill pts.
Swaps:
Sneak attack -> hexes (can take sneak attack as a hex)
Patron spells and familiar-> deceased rogue talent progression and UCD (the familiar is a bonded weapon [dire blade], and allows the Character to use SLAs granted by her patron. All Hexes are channeled using the dire blade as its focus.
I can do this all day...
The PDFs are still to come. Cureently we are finishing up a number of MCAs so that we have at least 15 MCAs in each of the PDFs we'll put out, one each for a partcular group, such as Divine Champions (Anp, Clr, Inq, Ora, Pal), Nature's Warriors (Bbn, Drd, Rgr), etc. that sort of thing. Still working out details.Which classes are you light on? I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and get to work.
Actually, it's not a matter of not having enough created, it's a matter of getting a bunch through the critique process for final completion, which we have to do. You are more than welcome to create more MCAs.
I hope it's obvious that I got the patron/ bonded item swap backwards. You will give up UCD and every other rogue talent for a bonded weapon at lvl 1 and a SLA every 4 lvls. Sorry for the flub there.
I'm working on a samurai/ ranger and paladin or anti paladin/ ranger as well, but I am working on a favored terrain tweak to sub in. Basically, it swaps challenge/ smite for a scaling favored enemy/ day bonus and the favored terrain ability will give combat control bonuses to fighting your quarry.
In the mean time...
Bombadier:
Rogue with an alchemy back
Trade Sneak attack for bombs, and add discoveries to the rogue talents.
Simple yet satisfying.
While we are doing rogues...
Here is a rogue with a non performance bard back.
Skills are 6/ lvl and trapfinding becomes skulduggery. The rogue gets 1/2 lvl bonus to disable device, sleight of hands, stealth, disguise, and acrobatics or whatever "roguey skills you think are appropriate.
@ 2, 6, 11, and 16 swap the rogue talents for inspire courage. They can be self only if you wish.
Bump
Nice work Byrd. I'd like to see a bit more flavor for each tho'! Like role, and concept beyond the merely mechanical. The Dire blade is a good start, but is bare bones. I find that it's the creative fluff/theme concept that really fires the tweaks to the synergy abiliies, the abilities that are a real meld of the two classes to make an MCA.
Your Bombardier is fairly straightforward, but we have a lot of bombers already, and without a theme it's just another chassis. Same for the Rogue/Bard - those classes are a neat pair, to be sure, but what is this guy? Make him/her... sing for me (sorry for the pun) and I'll give him/her critique for his supper. Tweak these iconic abilities, make them work together...
I guess I should really drag one of my concepts out of the dustcovers and let the thread have at them...
Yes you should.
Flavor has ever been a bane for me... I get the idea in my head, but I have a hard time translating it.
Dire Blade: I imagine a crafty and resourceful warrior who has made blade sworn pact with a patron to receive unnatural "luck" as it were in combat while cursing his foes with "bad luck" at the same time. I was going for a melee CC/ debuffer concept without making him too divine or arcane.
Bombadier: I was thinking of an urban terrorist here, based on my real life combat experience. I was intentionally vague on this one so I wouldn't risk offense by association.
The Bardish rogue: this is the ultimate skill rogue. A guild expert with unparalleled mastery of the art of skulduggery. The inspire courage aspect helps capitalize on this and using shifty tactics to aid his allies in and out of combat.
Note: I will admit that the last two are a bit weak... They have potential, but the dire blade will be awesome, IMO.
See what happens once you've fleshed things out a bit more, Bird. Your Rog/Alc (bomber) totally plucked my creativity strings. I hope this is what you were looking for. Pretty simple, like you had suggested.
Just imagine this guy with the Delayed Bomb or Precision Bomb discoveries.
Primary: Rogue.
Secondary: Alchemist.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The shadow bomber selects three alchemist skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The shadow bomber gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The shadow monk is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the bombs, hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. A shadow bomber is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Alchemy (Su): A shadow bomber gains the alchemist’s alchemy ability, except that he can only create mundane alchemical substances and bombs. In addition, when using Craft (alchemy) to create an alchemical item, a shadow bomber gains a competence bonus equal to his class level on the Craft (alchemy) check. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Bombs (Su): At 1st level, a shadow bomber gains the alchemist’s bomb ability. This ability replaces sneak attack.
Rogue Talents: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that whenever a shadow bomber could select a rogue talent, he can choose an alchemist’s bomb discovery that he qualifies for instead.
Sneak Bomb (Ex): At 3rd level, if a shadow bomber catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her bomb attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The shadow bomber 's bomb attack deals extra damage (called "precision damage") anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the shadow bomber flanks her target. This extra damage is equal to 1/2 her shadow bomber level. This ability replaces trap sense.
Shadowy Escape (Su): At 6th level, a shadow bomber gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell, which he uses to escape from the site of his deadly explosions unseen. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. A shadow bomber can jump up to a total of 20 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 20 feet or two jumps of 10 feet each. Every six levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadow bomber an jump each day increases by 20 feet (40 feet at 12th, and 60 feet at 18th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment. This ability replaces the rogue talents gained at 6th, 12th, and 18th level.
Silent Bomb (Su): At 9th level, a shadow bomber can alter his bombs to explode without making any sounds. As a swift action, a shadow bomber can imbue his bomb with a silence effect (as the spell) for a number of rounds equal to his shadow bomber level. Applying this effect reduced the bomb’s damage by 2d6. For example, a silent bomb of a 12th level shadow bomber only deals 4d6 points of damage instead of the usual 6d6 points of damage. A shadow bomber can only have one silent bomb created at a time. This ability changes the bomb ability.
Master Bomb Strike (Su): At 20th level, a shadow bomber becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak bomb damage. Each time the shadow bomber deals sneak bomb damage, she can choose one of the following three effects:
The target can be...
• put to sleep for 1d4 hours
• paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or
• slain
Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the shadow bomber 's level + the shadow bomber 's Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master bomb strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that shadow bomber 's master bomb strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.
Swap Table
Sneak Attack = Bombs
Trapfinding = Alchemy
Trap sense = Sneak Bomb
Rogue talents (6th/12th/18th) = Shadowy Escape
Change to Bomb ability = Silent Bomb
Master strike = Master bomb strike
Table: Shadow Bomber
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Alchemy, bomb 1d6
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Evasion, rogue talent
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Bomb 2d6, sneak bomb
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Rogue talent, uncanny dodge
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Bomb 3d6
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Shadowy escape (20 ft.)
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Bomb 4d6
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Bomb 5d6, silent bomb
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Advanced talents, rogue talent
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Bomb 6d6
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Shadowy escape (40 ft.)
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Bomb 7d6
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Rogue talent
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Bomb 8d6
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Rogue talent
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Bomb 9d6
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Shadowy escape (60 ft.)
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Bomb 10d6
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master bomb strike, rogue talent
Edit: It hikn OSW would likely take a crack at the Rog/Wtc, since he's our resident witch efficinado. Your Brd/Rog sounds like something Flak might like to build. We'll see.
Has anyone already suggested an Alchemist/Barbarian Multiclass based on the Ragechemist?
No Alc/Bbn, only a Bbn/Alc called the Mutagenic Brute, which needs some finalization and reworking. So many MCAs, so much to do on them.
Be my guest on giving it a shot lonewolf.
Edit: Glad to see another Canadian on the thread. :D
Man, looks great! Add in a deep buried bomb and a remote detonated bomb and its like being back in Iraq! Ok, maybe skip out on that then... It's surprisingly therapeutic to see this come into some light, to be honest. I'll stop talking now so I don't embarrass myself further. But thanks, it means something to me.
Hey, anything I can do to make your experiences in Iraq feel "happy" or at least theraputic in some way, it is my pleasure. Can't imagine what you guys go through over there. And BTW, thanx for doing what you do. Even though I'm a Canadian, I appreciate anyone willing to put their lives on the line for freedom.
See what happens once you've fleshed things out a bit more, Bird. Your Rog/Alc (bomber) totally plucked my creativity strings. I hope this is what you were looking for. Pretty simple, like you had suggested.
Just imagine this guy with the Delayed Bomb or Precision Bomb discoveries.
** spoiler omitted **...
Hmm. Okay. Very urban terrorist... just need Swift IED (Improvised Explosive Device) and he's ready to go...
My preference is for less magic on the Shadowy Escape. I guess this is the same old bone of contention you and I always have with these shafow types Elghinn! ;)
You go all Shadow Dancer magic portal where I see shadowy sneaking. In fact here, I could see flavor around sneaking away from the bombsite in the plumesmoke, debris and general chaos of post-explosion. Doesn't have to be "magic portal" which isn't really rogue or alchemist. See?
BTW Yes I like Witches, but Cartmanbeck was working on witches and warlocks long before I turned by baleful and myopic eye to the darkside of eldritch power. Having said that, I'll repeat, the Dire Blade is cool. It's just that I'm working on a new Base Class that has a Dire Pool and Dire Weapon, so I'm loath to work on a Dire Blade MCA right now...
How bout a vanish trick using the bomb as a distraction? Bomb goes off and you vanish till the end of your next turn. Wouldn't be too OP because you are giving up your sneak attack for the bombs anyway.
Issue with Silent Bomb: does it have any effect on sounds made by items damaged by the bomb? If the bomb is thrown at a bunch of furniture and the furniture explodes, is the sound of creaking and splintering wood also silenced?
How bout a vanish trick using the bomb as a distraction? Bomb goes off and you vanish till the end of your next turn. Wouldn't be too OP because you are giving up your sneak attack for the bombs anyway.
Since the ability replaced 3 talents what about this?
6th: Sometype of distraction with bombs, maybe based on the bard's disctraction performance. I'll have to look. Or maybe it can grant the Shadow Bomber an immediate Stealth check if the distraciton is sucessful, to be able to escape. not sure how big of a bonus. Flat +2 or something, or a scaled +1 every 5 levels?
12th: Gains Camouflage (but dim light to coincide with HiPS)
18th: Gains Hide in PLain Sight (as Shadowdancer)
Issue with Silent Bomb: does it have any effect on sounds made by items damaged by the bomb? If the bomb is thrown at a bunch of furniture and the furniture explodes, is the sound of creaking and splintering wood also silenced?
The silence effect would be a 20-foot emanation around the bomb. Anything within that 40-foot diameter sphere would be silenced, including the boom, collapsing stuff, etc. Anything outside it would still be heard.
About the dire blade:
I was looking at the patron granted spells, and was thinking of doubling them up since they aren't too spectacular. @ 4th lvl you would get the 2 and 4 spells 1/day, 8th lvl you get 6th and 8th, at 12th lvl you get 10 and 12, and at 16 you get 14 and 16, and at 20 you get the 18th lvl spell.
To clarify: at 4th, you can cast either the 2 or 4th lvl spell 1/day, not both. This would replace the 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20th rogue talent.
The dire blade itself is the focus for theses SLAs and the character cannot cast them without it. The blade can actually be any weapon type the rogue is proficient with. If the blade is destroyed it can be replaced and changed to a diferent type of weapon, as per the rules for replacing a bonded item, but the character takes a negative lvl and may need to seek atonement with his patron.
The dire blade is a martial enforcer, spy, and agent for their patron. Each dire blade enters a pact with their patron for their own varied reasons, and receives a boon in the form of the dire blade and the use of hexes. How the character uses these boons Is up to them, but they are bound to demands of their patron. A character who openly defies their patron or refuses to uphold their end of the pact loses all hexes, use of the dire blade and SLAs, and may find themselves targeted by a cabal of witches, hexcrafters, and other dire blades.
How does that taste!?!?
@Byrd - pretty tasty! I like it.
Should have said that they were bound to the infrequent demands of their patron. And said that the dire blade comes as mstwk.
Let's replace Shadowy Escape with the following.
Swift Diversion (Ex): At 6th level, whenever a shadow bomber is in an area of dim light, he can use his Bluff skill to create a diversion to hide as a swift action. If the check is successful, he can make a Stealth check as an immediate action and gains a +2 bonus to the check. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 6th level.
Shadow Camouflage (Ex): At 12th level, whenever a shadow bomber is in an area of dim light, he can use the Stealth skill to conceal hide himself within that area of dim light. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow. This ability replaces the rogue talent at 12th level.
Hide in Shadows (Ex): At 18th level, a shadow bomber can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadow bomber can hide himself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow. This ability replaces the rogue talent at 18th level.
That's good flavor there, Byrd. Good job. No rush with MCAs on the thread. Just take your time, flesh things out, and see what happens? Good job. I'll see about throwing it together maybe tomorrow.
I don't think you can make a swift and immediate back to back. Why don't you just make swift diversion function off a swift action?
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I don't think you can make a swift and immediate back to back. Why don't you just make swift diversion function off a swift action?
Actually, you CAN make a swift action and an immediate action back-to-back. If you use your swift action at the end of your turn, then end your turn, then you can use an immediate action which uses up the swift action from your NEXT turn right away.
I don't think you can make a swift and immediate back to back. Why don't you just make swift diversion function off a swift action?Actually, you CAN make a swift action and an immediate action back-to-back. If you use your swift action at the end of your turn, then end your turn, then you can use an immediate action which uses up the swift action from your NEXT turn right away.
So then, what would be the best way to do Swift Diversion, Cartmanbeck? I think you see what I'm trying to accomplish with it.
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So then, what would be the best way to do Swift Diversion, Cartmanbeck? I think you see what I'm trying to accomplish with it.I don't think you can make a swift and immediate back to back. Why don't you just make swift diversion function off a swift action?Actually, you CAN make a swift action and an immediate action back-to-back. If you use your swift action at the end of your turn, then end your turn, then you can use an immediate action which uses up the swift action from your NEXT turn right away.
Since Stealth checks are usually made as part of a movement action, I'd say leave it at that. He uses his swift action to make the diversion, and then needs to make some type of movement action (moving around a corner, ducking below a barrel, five-foot stepping behind the Orc Barbarian) to make the Stealth check with the +2 bonus.