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Say I'm a zen archer and I take a one level dip into ranger to be able to use a wand of gravity bow (increases damage die by one size for any arrows fired from the bow) and have a party member cast enlarge person on me, this would make my arrows the following:
Base: 1d8
Enlarged: 2d6
Gravity Bow: 3d6
Now say I have a wand of Strong Jaw that I can use on myself, this increases my natural attacks by 2 size categories (see below on reason for being able enhance unarmed strikes). Say I took the dip at level 10, my unarmed attacks would be the following:
Base: 1d10
With Monk's Robe: 2d6
Enlarged: 3d6
Strong Jaw: 5d6
Could I then stack gravity bow on top of that to increase the damage one more die to 6d6?
If so, theoretically, at level 10 I could be doing in upwards of 24d6 in a single round, not including any other damage bonus?
Now say I'm level 20 doing the same thing:
Base: 2d10
Enlarged: 4d8
Strong Jaw: 6d8
Gravity bow: 7d8
This, if all attacks hit, would be 49d8, 56d8 with haste...
I just want to make sure I'm thinking this through correctly, even if you can't stack gravity bow on top of all of that, 42d8 (48d8 with haste) is still pretty damn sweet
According to the monks unarmed strike section:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Incorrect, slightly. Note the text from Enlarge Person, emphasis mine:
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature's size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.
A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target's speed.
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Enlarge person counters and dispels reduce person.
Enlarge person can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
So your arrows would not get any bonus damage from Enlarge Person.
...stuff... Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.So your arrows would not get any bonus damage from Enlarge Person.
damn I knew I was missing something, thank you, redid calculations (totals assume all attacks hit):
Level 10 with gravity bow:
Base: 1d8
Gravity Bow: 2d6
total of 8d6 each round, 10d6 with haste
Strong Jaw + Gravity bow:
Level 10
Base: 1d10
With Monk's Robe: 2d6
Strong Jaw: 4d6
Gravity Bow: 5d6
Total of 20d6 each round, 25d6 with haste
Level 20
Base: 2d10
Strong Jaw: 5d8
Gravity Bow: 6d8
Total of 42d8 each round, 48d8 with haste
Does this seem more correct?
I'm definitely not the one to ask about Zen Archers. I'm glossing over the archetype now, and I don't get how they can use their Unarmed Strike damage for their bow. I just wanted to chime in on the Enlarge Person bit. Someone else can chime in here.
I'm definitely not the one to ask about Zen Archers. I'm glossing over the archetype now, and I don't get how they can use their Unarmed Strike damage for their bow. I just wanted to chime in on the Enlarge Person bit. Someone else can chime in here.
The way I look at it, if you have someone who can call a meteor out of the sky, someone else who can breathe fire/ice/acid, others who can turn into any shape they want, etc, enhancing arrows to do their unarmed strike isn't that far fetched.
At 5th level, a zen archer may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the damage dice of arrows he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes. This lasts until the start of his next turn. For example, a Medium zen archer’s short bow normally deals 1d6 damage; using this ability, his arrows deal 1d8 damage until the start of his next turn.
This ability replaces purity of body.
Ki Arrows changes the damage dice from whatever it would be, to that of unarmed strike. So even if your bow is firing arrows that deal 4d12 each, when you active Ki Arrows they do whatever your unarmed strike does instead.
Ki Arrows changes the damage dice from whatever it would be, to that of unarmed strike. So even if your bow is firing arrows that deal 4d12 each, when you active Ki Arrows they do whatever your unarmed strike does instead.
Right, but gravity bow states that it increases the arrow right before it hits the target for any arrow fired from your bow, so the progression would be, you enhance the bow with gravity bow, enhance your unarmed strikes with strong jaw, then next round use ki arrows, then fire those, you're firing the arrows as the unarmed strike damage, but with gravity bow, right before that arrow strikes it increases in size
Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and then return them to normal a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is. For instance, an arrow fired from a Medium longbow normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if fired from a gravity bow. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses your bow to make an attack the arrows deal damage as normal for their size.
At least that's the way I see, you're still changing the damage dice before it's shot from the bow, then right before it strikes the target it is increasing in size due to the spell
you're still changing the damage dice before it's shot from the bow, then right before it strikes the target it is increasing in size due to the spell
"Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is."
So your medium comp longbow deals 2d6 instead of 1d8.
Then when you spend the ki point you change the damage dice to unarmed strike.
Basically, Gravity Bow increases the dice of the arrow. Ki Arrows completely replaces those dice with unarmed strike dice. It doesn't matter when or how, it's either arrow dice (modified by whatever modifies arrow dice) or unarmed strike dice (modified by whatever modifies unarmed strike dice).
That said, ask your DM. If 6d8 arrows seems appropriate, then that's cool.
Basically, Gravity Bow increases the dice of the arrow. Ki Arrows completely replaces those dice with unarmed strike dice. It doesn't matter when or how, it's either arrow dice (modified by whatever modifies arrow dice) or unarmed strike dice (modified by whatever modifies unarmed strike dice).
Then under this logic you can just use enlarge person still to enhance the unarmed strike dice to the same 6d8, since the enlarge person isn't applying to the arrow dice but the unarmed strike dice, the arrow going back down to normal size after it's fired doesn't matter since you're not using the arrow's damage dice.
Then under this logic you can just use enlarge person still to enhance the unarmed strike dice
Sounds right, if enlarge person and strong jaw stack.
Enlarge Person: "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
Does that apply only to things that change the entire creature's size category, or would it still apply to things that change 'as if' larger?
The other issue is if Strong Jaw even works with Flurry of Bows.
Strong Jaw: "Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is."
That says natural attack, not natural weapon. Since you're not making a natural attack but instead of weapon attack using natural weapon dice, it may not work.
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Then under this logic you can just use enlarge person still to enhance the unarmed strike diceSounds right, if enlarge person and strong jaw stack.
Enlarge Person: "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
Does that apply only to things that change the entire creature's size category, or would it still apply to things that change 'as if' larger?
The other issue is if Strong Jaw even works with Flurry of Bows.
Strong Jaw: "Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is."
That says natural attack, not natural weapon. Since you're not making a natural attack but instead of weapon attack using natural weapon dice, it may not work.
Monk's unarmed strikes are explicitly stated to count as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons for the purposes of any effects. A natural weapon makes a natural attack. That's the whole point of calling it a natural weapon. So yes, Strong Jaw would stack with Enlarge Person, because you're not actually changing the SIZE of the creature with Strong Jaw, you're just making the attack stronger, and the mechanic of the game for giving higher damage to natural attacks is based on the size category, so that's how they wrote it.
Edit: I do however agree that Gravity Bow would not stack, since you're replacing the damage that the arrow would normally do with your unarmed strike damage. Still, this is beastly, and I fully intend to play one of these in the near future.
Then under this logic you can just use enlarge person still to enhance the unarmed strike diceSounds right, if enlarge person and strong jaw stack.
Enlarge Person: "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
Does that apply only to things that change the entire creature's size category, or would it still apply to things that change 'as if' larger?
The other issue is if Strong Jaw even works with Flurry of Bows.
Strong Jaw: "Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is."
That says natural attack, not natural weapon. Since you're not making a natural attack but instead of weapon attack using natural weapon dice, it may not work.
The last line of the spell "This spell does not actually change the creature's size; all of its statistics except the amount of damage dealt by its natural attacks remain unchanged", which is the limitation on enlarge person, leads me to assume that they would stack
The first line of the spell "Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons" is what leads me to believe it can be used on the monk's unarmed strikes since that section of the monk refers to them as natural weapons. And since this line comes prior to the part about the natural attacks, it is assumed that the attacks are made with the natural weapons mentioned in the prior sentence.
*ninja'd by cartman
sounds correct.
The enlarge person and strong jaw should all increase the damage dice of the monks unarmed attacks, because strong jaw doesnt actually increase your size, and as such is not covered by the restrictions in enlarge person.
This would make the arrows do (assuming 2d6 base)
base 2d6
enlarge from 2d6 to 3d6
strong jaw from 3d6 to 3d8 to 6d6
so you would deal 6d6 damage per arrow when spending a KI.
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Then under this logic you can just use enlarge person still to enhance the unarmed strike diceSounds right, if enlarge person and strong jaw stack.
Enlarge Person: "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
Does that apply only to things that change the entire creature's size category, or would it still apply to things that change 'as if' larger?
The other issue is if Strong Jaw even works with Flurry of Bows.
Strong Jaw: "Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is."
That says natural attack, not natural weapon. Since you're not making a natural attack but instead of weapon attack using natural weapon dice, it may not work.
Monk's unarmed strikes are explicitly stated to count as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons for the purposes of any effects. A natural weapon makes a natural attack. That's the whole point of calling it a natural weapon. So yes, Strong Jaw would stack with Enlarge Person, because you're not actually changing the SIZE of the creature with Strong Jaw, you're just making the attack stronger, and the mechanic of the game for giving higher damage to natural attacks is based on the size category, so that's how they wrote it.
Edit: I do however agree that Gravity Bow would not stack, since you're replacing the damage that the arrow would normally do with your unarmed strike damage. Still, this is beastly, and I fully intend to play one of these in the near future.
This is also one of the few builds I've ever seen where Strength can really make a huge difference for an archer. Any bonuses to Strength are also going to deal more damage with your arrows, which means the composite longbow is unnecessary (though you'd still want one for when you run out of ki points). I'm gonna write this build up as best I can, and I think I'm going to have to include some Alchemist levels for mutagen and alchemical allocation, so that this can stand completely on its own...
This is also one of the few builds I've ever seen where Strength can really make a huge difference for an archer. Any bonuses to Strength are also going to deal more damage with your arrows, which means the composite longbow is unnecessary (though...
This actually brings up a good point, I was under the impression all you're changing is the damage dice itself, and would be keeping the enhancements from the bow, not your unarmed strike enhancements, since the Ki Arrows ability doesn't state you change those, it just says you change the damage dice.
Monk's unarmed strikes are explicitly stated to count as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons for the purposes of any effects. A natural weapon makes a natural attack.
This is completely a GM call, however if I were a GM I would side with Grick, because the actual Monk ability says:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
It doesn't say it turns a Monk's attack into a Natural Attack only that it can be enhanced by things that would enhance a Natural Weapon, and in other places in the rules goes into great detail to spell out the differences between a monk's unarmed attack and a natural attack.
Monk's unarmed strikes are explicitly stated to count as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons for the purposes of any effects. A natural weapon makes a natural attack.
Correct. That's why his fists (or whatever) are a valid target for the spell. And if he made a natural attack with that natural weapon, it would be enhanced by the spell.
The spell only affects the natural attack, not the natural weapon. And Flurry with a bow is not a natural attack, even if it uses natural weapon dice size.
"Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature's natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is."
You touch the weapon, and enhance the attack. If you don't make a natural attack, it's not enhanced.
(ZA) Flurry of Blows (Ex) is not a natural attack, it uses a weapon.
Ki Arrows (Su) changes the arrow dice to that of his unarmed strikes. Even though it's using unarmed strike dice, it's not making a natural attack, so anything that only applies to a natural attack does not apply.
Any bonuses to Strength are also going to deal more damage with your arrows, which means the composite longbow is unnecessary
How do you figure?
Ki Arrows changes the base weapon dice, not bonus damage.
If you had an amulet of mighty fists (flaming) it would not grant you flaming arrows.
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Any bonuses to Strength are also going to deal more damage with your arrows, which means the composite longbow is unnecessaryHow do you figure?
Ki Arrows changes the base weapon dice, not bonus damage.
If you had an amulet of mighty fists (flaming) it would not grant you flaming arrows.
Yep, you're right, I missed the word "dice" there, in that it changed the damage dice not the overall damage.
Thank you all for the feed back, this is exactly what I needed, even though 2 of the things won't work, still doing 12d6 over the 4d8 (with just enlarge person) isn't that bad.
Now I raise this to everyone, are there any other ways to increase the damage die for unarmed attacks? that stack with enlarge person.
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Thank you all for the feed back, this is exactly what I needed, even though 2 of the things won't work, still doing 12d6 over the 4d8 (with just enlarge person) isn't that bad.
Now I raise this to everyone, are there any other ways to increase the damage die for unarmed attacks? that stack with enlarge person.
It wouldn't be 12D6 though.
Remember with the changes to Flurry of Blows only one of those attacks would get the bonus from those spells, the rest of the attacks that round would not benefit from the spells affecting you.Your first attack would be at 4D6, the rest of them however would all be at base damage (+1 size increase bonus). All of this providing of course that you can actually make anymore attacks that round since you can only use your bow for one attack as the rules currently stand.
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I have to agree that strong jaw wouldn't affect the arrow attacks, as they are not natural attacks.Neither is UAS...
UAS is never taken as a natural attack (only iterative), but is affected by things that alter natural attacks because it explicitly says so...
Yeah, I still think Strong Jaw should work.
I threw together a build that I think would work very well. I'll just list the relevant things gained at each level:
Starting abilities: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 19, Cha 7
Traits: Fist of the Society, Poverty Stricken
Favored Class: Human Monk (+1/4 Ki point)
Level 1: Alchemist (Vivisectionist) 1: Sneak +1d6, mutagen, Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Combat Reflexes
2: Monk (Zen Archer/Qinggong) 1: Precise Shot, Perfect Strike, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike
3: Monk 2: Rapid Shot, Way of the Bow (Weapon Focus), Feat: Deadly Aim
4: Monk 3: Fast Movement, Zen Archery, Point-Blank Master, Str +1
5: Monk 4: Ki pool (magic), Ki arrow (1 ki point), Feat: Extra Ki
6: Monk 5: Ki Arrows, Ki Stand, Way of the Bow (Weapon Spec.)
7: Monk 6: Improved Precise Shot, Feat: Improved Trip
8: Monk 7: Snatch Arrows, Wis +1
9: Monk 8: Feat: Clustered Shots
10: Monk 9: Reflexive Shot
11: Monk 10: Ki pool (lawful), Improved Critical (longbow), Feat: Snap Shot
12: Monk 11: Trick Shot, Wis +1
13: Monk 12: Abundant Step, Feat: Touch of Serenity
14: Monk 13: Diamond Soul
15: Monk 14: Pinpoint Targeting, Feat: Impact Critical Shot
16: Monk 15: blood crow strike (2 ki points), Wis +1
17: Monk 16: Ki pool (adamantine), Feat: Extra Ki
18: Monk 17: Ki Focus Bow, Quivering Palm
19: Monk 18: Manyshot, Feat: Extra Ki
20: Monk 19: Timeless body, Wis +1
Ok so, you'd want to make sure you max out the UMD skill so that you can use wands. You'd use gravity bow early on (basically until 5th level or so) and then you'd buy a wand of Strong Jaw as soon as you possibly can. You'd also want a wand of Enlarge Person to supplement your one extract of Enlarge Person per day.
At level 10 you'd be making bow attacks using your Wis mod to hit, which would be +5 without any modifying magic items, and you'd deal 5d8 + 12 (1d10 from monk -> 2d8 from enlarge -> 4d8 from Strong Jaw -> 5d8 from Monk's Robe, +1 Point Blank Shot +5 Str(from mutagen and enlarge) +4 Deadly Aim +2 Weapon Spec) ON EACH SHOT when you use a Ki point as a swift action. You'd have 10 ki points (5 from monk levels + 5 from Wis) each day.
This is assuming only that you have a longbow with strength rating of +5, and you would of course have a magic longbow by that time. You could also carry two bows, one with a lower strength rating, so that you don't have a penalty to attacks when you're not enlarged and mutagenized.
Can someone tell me if I've erred or missed anything??
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Thank you all for the feed back, this is exactly what I needed, even though 2 of the things won't work, still doing 12d6 over the 4d8 (with just enlarge person) isn't that bad.
Now I raise this to everyone, are there any other ways to increase the damage die for unarmed attacks? that stack with enlarge person.
It wouldn't be 12D6 though.
Remember with the changes to Flurry of Blows only one of those attacks would get the bonus from those spells, the rest of the attacks that round would not benefit from the spells affecting you.
Your first attack would be at 4D6, the rest of them however would all be at base damage (+1 size increase bonus). All of this providing of course that you can actually make anymore attacks that round since you can only use your bow for one attack as the rules currently stand.
The "changes" to flurry of blows is still not decided when it comes to the Zen Archer, and are not officially changed, for that matter. These builds are assuming the old flurry rules are still in effect, at least for the Zen Archer. Otherwise Zen Archer is completely useless.
It wouldn't be 12D6 though.
Remember with the changes to Flurry of Blows only one of those attacks would get the bonus from those spells, the rest of the attacks that round would not benefit from the spells affecting you.
Your first attack would be at 4D6, the rest of them however would all be at base damage (+1 size increase bonus). All of this providing of course that you can actually make anymore attacks that round since you can only use your bow for one attack as the rules currently stand.
Please explain this to me.
As I see it, enlarge person is increasing your unarmed damage dice from 2d6 to 3d6 at level 10 with a monks robe, that becomes your base damage dice for unarmed strike.
Ki Arrows states that until the beginning of your next turn, arrows shot from your bow are at the unarmed strike damage dice.
At 5th level, a zen archer may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the damage dice of arrows (I take this to mean every arrow since it is plural and doesn't state first arrow) he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes. This lasts until the start of his next turn. For example, a Medium zen archer’s short bow normally deals 1d6 damage; using this ability, his arrows deal 1d8 damage until the start of his next turn.
This ability replaces purity of body.
So at level 10 with 4 attacks (assuming all hit) at 3d6 for each arrow, that is a total of 12d6. The only spell effecting you at this point is Enlarge person, since the general consensus was that the other spells wouldn't work or didn't work together.
Where did they state that only one attack from flurry gets the bonus from the spells? I've read through the many (albeit not every single post) different threads on it and haven't seen it.
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It wouldn't be 12D6 though.
Remember with the changes to Flurry of Blows only one of those attacks would get the bonus from those spells, the rest of the attacks that round would not benefit from the spells affecting you.
Your first attack would be at 4D6, the rest of them however would all be at base damage (+1 size increase bonus). All of this providing of course that you can actually make anymore attacks that round since you can only use your bow for one attack as the rules currently stand.Please explain this to me.
As I see it, enlarge person is increasing your unarmed damage dice from 2d6 to 3d6 at level 10 with a monks robe, that becomes your base damage dice for unarmed strike.
Ki Arrows states that until the beginning of your next turn, arrows shot from your bow are at the unarmed strike damage dice.
At 5th level, a zen archer may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the damage dice of arrows (I take this to mean every arrow since it is plural and doesn't state first arrow) he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes. This lasts until the start of his next turn. For example, a Medium zen archer’s short bow normally deals 1d6 damage; using this ability, his arrows deal 1d8 damage until the start of his next turn.
This ability replaces purity of body.
So at level 10 with 4 attacks (assuming all hit) at 3d6 for each arrow, that is a total of 12d6. The only spell effecting you at this point is Enlarge person, since the general consensus was that the other spells wouldn't work or didn't work together.
Where did they state that only one attack from flurry gets the bonus from the spells? I've read through the many (albeit not every single post) different threads on it and haven't seen it.
I disagree, I don't think a general consensus has been reached at all about the other spells working or not. I still see no reason that Strong Jaw shouldn't apply to the unarmed strike damage, and therefore to the bow damage.
He's referring to the unofficial ruling from one of the developers that attacks with flurry of blows can't all be made with a single weapon in a round. This ruling completely breaks the Zen Archer, but it is NOT official in any way as of now. They're "still discussing it" at this point, so the previous rules stand, as of now.
