Curiosity inspires me to ask these questions.
1) What is the "sweet spot" for you all when someone can fully participate in the game (competitively engage in all available activities) with 1 subscription/character? Never? (eg, 10+ years), 5 years? 7.5 years? (How long WoW has been out so far...), 9 years (how long Eve has been out?)
2) What is the LONGEST you have ever played a single MMO. Subscribing without playing doesn't count, nor does a game you went back to several times with big subscription lapses.
3) Why did you stop playing the game you played the longest, if you played in spurts, why did you stop going back?
4) If PFO mechanically copies the following systems but strings them together into a believable economy and world, how long will you play it before becoming bored?
-WoW Combat
-Eve Manufacturing
-Eve Skill Training
-SWG Harvesting
-Shadowbane settlement construction
Goblin Squad Member
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Curiosity inspires me to ask these questions.
1) What is the "sweet spot" for you all when someone can fully participate in the game (competitively engage in all available activities) with 1 subscription/character? Never? (eg, 10+ years), 5 years? 7.5 years? (How long WoW has been out so far...), 9 years (how long Eve has been out?)
A definition of "all available activities" would be helpful here.
If you mean play a role well in all forms, IE be a good support or DPS character who is capable of PVP, PVE etc... doing everything that that one class is good at, I would say 3 months tops (note by competive also I am not saying being as good as I can get, but good enough that I am a help in a large group and can make a solid impact.If by "all availible activities" you are meaning, being competitive at all roles, as in A good healer, buffer, tank, constant damage dealer, burst damage dealer, harvester of all resources and crafter of all types etc... I would lean more towards 10+ years.
2) What is the LONGEST you have ever played a single MMO. Subscribing without playing doesn't count, nor does a game you went back to several times with big subscription lapses.
For me probably ragnarok online, about 5 years in that one.
3) Why did you stop playing the game you played the longest, if you played in spurts, why did you stop going back?
Too much drama in the community, and the class balance which was never great, but got increasingly worse every update (they regularly would buff the strongest classes, and nerf the weaker ones, it seems like they put the efforts on buffing the classes that the most people are playing, leading to more people playing them, thus more buffs repeated etc...) That and the grind got a bit dull. Spending too long in the same place, doing the same actions repetitively eventually does wear one out.
4) If PFO mechanically copies the following systems but strings them together into a believable economy and world, how long will you play it before becoming bored?
Well each of those is their own system and some reflect positively and some negatively
-WoW Combat
Personally I found little I liked in WoW's combat system, The inconsistencies in repeated balance changes because X was too good for PVP, Y was too good for PVE, the grade of gear impact made everything feel rather pointless (regardless of who controlled the characters, you could quickly determine the ending with a simple gear inspection). The PVE raid puzzles were cool... when you actually figure them out, but of course since they were scripted, it wasn't long before only 1 group figured it out, posted it online and everyone just copied, changing it from a problem solving chalange to a follow the instructions, rinse and repeat.
Honestly if the game copy's WoW's combat too much, I can't find myself playing the game more then a few months tops.
-Eve Manufacturing
-Eve Skill Training
Both of these would greatly increase my amount of time playing, if the combat and content are both engaging enough that I have something to do while these run, I would say these parts being streamlined like eve, avoiding the grind that wears me out on a game, I could play for years.
-SWG Harvesting
-Shadowbane settlement construction
haven't really played either, so I can't make any judgement. The little I have heard about SWG pre-sony makes it sound good, but I cannot strongly agree or disagree off of something I haven't touched.
1) 6 months to a year.
2) 8 months.
3) My single longest play was in EQ 2. The repetition with the content got boring in the raid scene. In my on-again/off-again with EVE, I often leave because I need to work and my life can only sustain periods of playing all night, napping before work and working all day or else I'm sure I'd just collapse. :D
4) 0 days. I hate WoW and hope it stays far, far away from PFO otherwise I'm sure I'll cry already-dead kittens. I have no exposure to SWG or Shadowbane though. On the Eve aspects, assuming non-repetitious combat, harvesting that doesn't make me fall to sleep and a construction mechanic that feels natural that I can build my almighty kingdom so long as I can convince everyone to collude with me? I'd be in for a long, long time. Currently, my goal is two archetype capstones in a single character with PFO. I want my wiz/fighter blend of awesome. Wiz/fighter/rogue|bard would be amazing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In most MMOs, if I have been playing a Tank and suddenly decide I want to play a Healer on my guild raids, I'm looking at 2 months (your number, I think) before I can do so effectively. I don't really see a problem with PFO having a similar time constraint for a comparable switch in roles at comparable levels of play.
1) What is the "sweet spot" for you all when someone can fully participate in the game (competitively engage in all available activities) with 1 subscription/character? Never? (eg, 10+ years), 5 years? 7.5 years? (How long WoW has been out so far...), 9 years (how long Eve has been out?)
Imagine I'm starting a PFO character after the game has been out for two years. I would expect to be able to go along with my guild on pretty much any outing they had, and be a net benefit for them, in a few weeks. I would expect to be capable of being a star in said outings after a few months.
2) What is the LONGEST you have ever played a single MMO. Subscribing without playing doesn't count, nor does a game you went back to several times with big subscription lapses.
I played EverQuest for at least 4 years straight. Oddly enough, during that time, I never reached level cap.
3) Why did you stop playing the game you played the longest, if you played in spurts, why did you stop going back?
I stopped playing EverQuest when WoW came out because WoW was so much easier. I remember the novelty of getting actual upgrades to drop from regular level 5 mobs. And I remember the novelty of actually having a ton of quests that were easy to find, and easy to complete.
4) If PFO mechanically copies the following systems but strings them together into a believable economy and world, how long will you play it before becoming bored?
-WoW Combat
-Eve Manufacturing
-Eve Skill Training
-SWG Harvesting
-Shadowbane settlement construction
Can't say. Don't know Shadowbane, and there's so much variability in what you mean by "mechanically copies WoW Combat" and what I would imagine that we're not even speaking the same language.
Can't say. Don't know Shadowbane, and there's so much variability in what you mean by "mechanically copies WoW Combat" and what I would imagine that we're not even speaking the same language.
1+ second global cooldown between skill uses. Defensive abilities are passive % chances, attacks are auto-aimed and can not be avoided except passively or through line of sight. Skill usage is limited through cool downs instead of resource consumption. Core gameplay consists of min-maxxing and macro'ing "skill rotations" to optimize DPS for "burst" or "sustained". Crowd control (stuns, snares, mezzes, fears, etc) and healing abilities are the strongest PvP abilities in the game.
/edit: Shadowbane city management - http://www.anybrowser.org/shadowbane/city.html
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Goblin Squad Member
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Curiosity inspires me to ask these questions.
1) What is the "sweet spot" for you all when someone can fully participate in the game (competitively engage in all available activities) with 1 subscription/character? Never? (eg, 10+ years), 5 years? 7.5 years? (How long WoW has been out so far...), 9 years (how long Eve has been out?)
2) What is the LONGEST you have ever played a single MMO. Subscribing without playing doesn't count, nor does a game you went back to several times with big subscription lapses.
3) Why did you stop playing the game you played the longest, if you played in spurts, why did you stop going back?
4) If PFO mechanically copies the following systems but strings them together into a believable economy and world, how long will you play it before becoming bored?
-WoW Combat
-Eve Manufacturing
-Eve Skill Training
-SWG Harvesting
-Shadowbane settlement construction
1) I would like to see usefullness after a few weeks of training in an area. Competitive and good in all areas? Should take a *very* long time, months to years.
2) 4 years, Star Wars Galaxies (Sandbox MMO, REJOICE!)
3) When SOE hauled out the NGE (New Game Entirely) and tried to take it from sandbox to Themepark McBland. I did *not* sign up for generic class progression. I liked blending classes. That being a rifleman and martial artist could be done with the same character.
4)
-- WoW combat wasn't a bad thing, but I *really* liked the ammo/mana system from the Old Republic. For those of you who don't know about it, your ammo/mana regened based on how much you had left. So, you *could* nova out a bunch of skills in a hurry, but then you will have a *really* slow regen rate. But, if you keep your mana high for a duration fight, the enemy might nova *you*.
-- Can't speak to Eve manufacturing, haven't played Eve (yet).
-- Eve training, as in real world timer set for training? Yes, I love it.
-- SWG crafting/harvesting was the best bloody part of the game. I spent countless hours roaming the hills of various planets, searching out that vein of brilliant material I knew had to exist. Finding a stockpile of a valuable mat and being able to report it back to my guild? Priceless.
I can't say how long I'll play before becoming bored, but I'm fairly certain it would be at least a few years. Sandbox games draw me in, especially with PFO's focus on player-driven story actually influencing the game world (Bioware, I'm looking at you! Choices matter my ***)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I would prefer more tactical considerations in my combat than is really in WoW. I really liked the direction Vanguard went with a larger number of reactive abilities. I would prefer to see more active defense abilities as well, but really those are just active abilities that temporarily grant passive defense bonuses, aren't they? If they're not based on some passive bonus, how do you determine if they're effective? Are they always effective? Or always effective against certain attacks?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I would prefer more tactical considerations in my combat than is really in WoW. I really liked the direction Vanguard went with a larger number of reactive abilities. I would prefer to see more active defense abilities as well, but really those are just active abilities that temporarily grant passive defense bonuses, aren't they? If they're not based on some passive bonus, how do you determine if they're effective? Are they always effective? Or always effective against certain attacks?
The question with reactive abilities, is how often do you want player putting in commands to the server? Because of latency, it can't be too quick, but a "reaction" command that you can use 3-4 seconds after they use their ability is a bit too much too.
Did you have any experience with The Old Republic's energy regen system? Does that increase the tactical feeling of combat?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did you have any experience with The Old Republic's energy regen system?
I played a Jedi Knight in SWTOR, but I never played KOTOR. I'm not sure which one you're referring to.
However, as far as "tactical" concerns, I want it to matter where I stand, and I want it to cost something to move. I want to have to pay attention to what my opponent(s) are doing, and react. I want there to be feints that are used to trick an opponent into reacting to the wrong thing. I want my Perception skill to factor into how well I recognize what's happening.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) One week or less of casual play. It should take months to hone your player skills though and there needs to be objectives other than character development to work on.
2) Freelancer (un-modded). 5 years.
3) Because it was released as a single player game with an MMO style multiplayer. (By that I mean a persistent world and characters where you could explore or interact with other people as you encountered them randomly out in the world.) No expansions were ever released and the game engine severely limited what modders could do with it. There was no meaningful territory control nor could it be modded in. Plus the means of making money lacked depth. Beyond that it was bleeding players by the point I left.
If it had been designed as a full MMO with meaningful territory control and more ways of making money than combat missions and point A to point B and back again trading... I would still be playing it.
4) -WoW combat is already fairly boring to me.
-Eve Manufacturing involves barely any player interaction and is also boring.
-Eve Skill Training is a good foundation but the implementation needs to be modified. If it were cut and paste I would find that boring too.
-I didn't play enough SWG to know.
-I never played Shadowbane.
I would prefer:
-Modified Guild Wars style combat.
-Manufacturing like described in the blog, with the mini-games being fairly involved.
-Modified Eve Skill Training to allow greater character diversity faster.
-Harvesting as described in the blog.
-Settlment construction where you lay out where you want buildings put, and then they are constructed using the crafting system described in the blog.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the impressions I got in the short time I played Guild Wars was that every single class was intended to be able to heal themselves. To me, this led to very gimmicky game play that was fundamentally the same for all classes. I don't mean all the classes played the same; I mean there was a gimmicky feeling that was the same for all classes.
I don't mind gimmicks for certain classes, but when all classes use the same gimmick(s), then the whole thing just feels one-dimensional.
Hopefully, GW will keep the gimmicks different for each Archetype. That way, the simple chore of learning to play the different Archetypes will be an added balancing factor to multi-classing.
Goblinworks Founder
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Curiosity inspires me to ask these questions.
1) What is the "sweet spot" for you all when someone can fully participate in the game (competitively engage in all available activities) with 1 subscription/character? Never? (eg, 10+ years), 5 years? 7.5 years? (How long WoW has been out so far...), 9 years (how long Eve has been out?)
Should be able to get yourself started with-in a week. That is where you'll learn the skills you want to stick with; and gain enough supplies to get yourself going.
2) What is the LONGEST you have ever played a single MMO. Subscribing without playing doesn't count, nor does a game you went back to several times with big subscription lapses.
Everquest - 4 years
Ultima Online - 4 years (Beta, Counselor)
3) Why did you stop playing the game you played the longest, if you played in spurts, why did you stop going back?
Ultima went and tried out Everquest with friends.
4) If PFO mechanically copies the following systems but strings them together into a believable economy and world, how long will you play it before becoming bored?-WoW Combat
-Eve Manufacturing
-Eve Skill Training
-SWG Harvesting
-Shadowbane settlement construction
Wow Combat will bore me, SWG harvesting/Crafting style will keep me interested.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the impressions I got in the short time I played Guild Wars was that every single class was intended to be able to heal themselves. To me, this led to very gimmicky game play that was fundamentally the same for all classes. I don't mean all the classes played the same; I mean there was a gimmicky feeling that was the same for all classes.
I don't mind gimmicks for certain classes, but when all classes use the same gimmick(s), then the whole thing just feels one-dimensional.
Hopefully, GW will keep the gimmicks different for each Archetype. That way, the simple chore of learning to play the different Archetypes will be an added balancing factor to multi-classing.
I don't think you got a very good feel for Guild Wars. There was a lot of difference between classes, especially in their self healing abilities. Ether Feast (The mesmers main self heal) was entirely different than healing signet (The warriors main self heal) which was entirely different than any other class's self heal.
While the warriors signet was a powerful heal with no cost but a long induction and no cooldown (Making it easy to interrupt) the mesmer's self heal was a quick weak heal with a long cooldown that could only be used in combat since it drained your opponents energy to heal your health. It wasn't even worth it for every mesmer build to run it.
Each class played VERY differently, or even the same class running a different build, and had different ways of dealing with them. For instance the melee class assassin, and a hammer warrior. A hammer warrior dealt very few very powerful blows, while an assassin came at you and spammed you with a ton of small weak attacks that added up to quite a lot of damage. My monk ate assassins for breakfast because my elite skill was healing hands, which healed me for a small amount each time I took damage. They would come and spam me with what should have killed me fairly rapidly, and it would make my healthbar shoot up to full.
On the other hand I was terrified of hammer warriors because they would come and lay down so few powerful blows that my healing hands did almost nothing against them.
A protective monk likely would have found the opposite to be true. They had skills that could cap the damage of incoming attacks at a certain amount so that no matter what your opponent won't hit you for over 50 damage or turn your next incoming blows damage into healing. Things that would certainly make them good against the slow powerful blows of a hammer warrior but terrible against the many quick strikes of an assassin.
Personally I think a domination mesmer was THEE most unique class I have ever played in any game. It didn't rely much at all on direct attacks but rather things that made your opponents work against themselves. For instance the ability "backfire." Probably one of the coolest skills I have ever run across. If puts an enchantment on your enemy that whenever they cast a spell that take a HUGE amount of damage. I remember it being over 300 for a maxed domination mesmer which was over half your health in that game.
You could wait for it to wear off, or have an ally remove it for you. And it wouldn't even really effect you if you were a non-using spell class such as a warrior, but if you were a spell caster not paying attention you would destroy yourself in seconds.
So a domination mesmer was about identifying a target you can mess with, and subtly sneaking in skills that make them destroy themselves. As opposed to an elementalist which is basically about hurling damage straight at your opponents. As opposed to a blood necromancer which was about draining their opponents health, as opposed to a death necromancer which was about exploiting the bodies of fallen foes and allies to create minions as opposed to a ritualist which chained spirits to the ground that would defend an area.
Within each skill of each class was dozens or abilities you could use to SERIOUSLY customize your character to do whatever you wanted. You could have a character with many skills and a more diverse build/build with intersting combos that isn't as powerful in the individual skills, or a character like mine that focuses entirely on a couple skills and does them exceedingly well.
No two Guild Wars characters were the same unless you are the type inclined to copy builds directly from other players and websites. I would consider Guild Wars to be anything but one dimensional.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andius, yeah, like I said...
I don't mean all the classes played the same; I mean there was a gimmicky feeling that was the same for all classes.
So you felt having self heal abilities that vary in strength and usefulness depending on how survivable your character is meant to be felt like a gimmick?
Anyway the reason I went off on the post I did is because you said:
Hopefully, GW will keep the gimmicks different for each Archetype. That way, the simple chore of learning to play the different Archetypes will be an added balancing factor to multi-classing.
There is A LOT of chore learning to play the different archetypes in Guild Wars and there are a lot of different gimmicks each class can use. I think they just figured self healing is a basic enough ability that each class should be able to take it, but they made the way each self heal works very unique. Whether its devouring the souls of fallen opponents as a death necromancer, the slow powerful and free burst heal of warrior's signet, or a small amount of healing attached to each spell you cast on yourself like a smiting monk, every class's healing operates very differently.
As a mesmer it may be far less worth your time to take healing skills and far more worth your time to take skills that allow you to interrupt your opponent's healing. A conjuration mesemer that uses slowdowns and DOT then interrupts their opponents as they try to heal themselves can DEVASTATE a warrior or any other melee class without the use of any self heals.
Its not like Guild Wars forces you to take those skills. In-fact not doing so is probably a wise idea if you have a monk or ritualist who can heal for you.
Self heals for every class could easily be taken out of the Guild Wars format and every class but monks would probably still be viable. If you designed classes to not need self heals they certainly would be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Guild Wars felt gimmicky to me because it seemed like everything boiled down to balancing Healing Over Time with Damage Over Time. I felt the same way I felt when I was constantly quaffing potions in Diablo to keep my bubbles filled.
I'm not now, nor have I ever been, of the opinion that all the Guild Wars classes played the same.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Guild Wars felt gimmicky to me because it seemed like everything boiled down to balancing Healing Over Time with Damage Over Time.
Not at all. You could run moderate to low damage builds with little to no healing and win. Disrupts played a HUGE role in that game, as did damage prevention and conditions.
For instance one of my better performing characters was my Air Mage. The main feature of my Air mage was it was strong against non-spell abilities because I would keep my opponents blinded. I wasn't racing to see who could put out the most DPS. I was attempting to entirely shut my opponents down. If I recall right that build originally had a warrior's healing signet that I invested no points in to heal myself up if I could break away from the fight. It was useless inside a fight with as few points as I had invested in it's root skill "tactics". I think I may have eventually dropped all healing from the build.
Another example was my ranger my disrupt ranger. It's focus was to keep up a steady output of damage on the target and disrupt them any time they tried to make a healing action. And there were several other effective disrupting classes/builds too. Anyone who had any skills with long inductions that liked Guild Wars PVP is VERY familiar with disrupts. That ranger did have the self heal Troll Ungent but he didn't even use it every battle.
Finally there is of course damage prevention. Things like can be cast before an incoming attack to negate it or turn it into healing. Or longer duration spells that just lower incoming damage. Protection is something I never really explored on my monk but the bit I did delve into seemed like a very interesting game-play style. Where I was just racing to restore health bars faster than they ran out, protection mages spent more time reacting to and anticipating the moves of the enemy to deal with conditions and negate incoming attacks, and in general seemed like they could deal with more overall damage than a healer.
The formula with Guild Wars was balancing things that destroyed people with things that kept you alive and learning how to use the things that kept you alive. Also this balance is less important in anything but Random PVP Arenas. If you know what team you are running and your allies can support you, you can go all out DPS just like in WoW or any other regular MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) What is the "sweet spot" for you all when someone can fully participate in the game (competitively engage in all available activities) with 1 subscription/character? Never? (eg, 10+ years), 5 years? 7.5 years? (How long WoW has been out so far...), 9 years (how long Eve has been out?)
In an ideal MMO, everyone can contribute. Even new characters/players should be able to contribute. The challenge is on the devs to produce a game with such a variety of interacting areas of play that players can always find a necessary niche. As for competitively, I am not sure what that means...if a newbie buddy distracts the uber player long enough for me to kill them, were they competitive? Was I?
2) What is the LONGEST you have ever played a single MMO. Subscribing without playing doesn't count, nor does a game you went back to several times with big subscription lapses.
Saga of Ryzom, 2.5 years straight, many 3-6 month returns since.
3) Why did you stop playing the game you played the longest, if you played in spurts, why did you stop going back?
Lack of freedom in the "sandbox" limits player developed content...and zero theme park content (the latter, I was fine with).
4) If PFO mechanically copies the following systems but strings them together into a believable economy and world, how long will you play it before becoming bored?
-WoW Combat
-Eve Manufacturing
-Eve Skill Training
-SWG Harvesting
-Shadowbane settlement construction
Soon. A better blend for me would be:
- Kingdoms of Amalur combat (I actually like the art style too, although PFO would be better with more of a PF lean).
- Saga of Ryzom Harvesting/Crafting (with modifications for group based Larger Scale Harvesting/Crafting)
- Minecraft Structure/Land Crafting/Modification
- PFO (as described) Skill Training
- Shadowbane Settlement Management (I have never played this, but it looks intriguing as long as it had a friendly GUI...and I would revisit the design to allow it to be used for player made faction management as well)
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) What is the "sweet spot" for you all when someone can fully participate in the game (competitively engage in all available activities) with 1 subscription/character?
This question has many nuances
-after 12-15 months i except no PVE (or PVP) activities should be 'too high level' for me if I have a well-rounded build. Challenging and require a group, yes, but I expect to make a difference in that group.-however after the first years i expect there to be either emergent gameplay (player kingdoms and politics) or added content by developers.
-becoming top dog at both pve, pvp -and- economics should take much longer.
-Becoming top dog at fighting, casting, healing, utility and every type of economic speciality = 10+ years (but becoming a well-rounded jack-of-all-trades, around 2 years).
2) What is the LONGEST you have ever played a single MMO. Subscribing without playing doesn't count, nor does a game you went back to several times with big subscription lapses.
around 2 years, WoW
3) Why did you stop playing the game you played the longest, if you played in spurts, why did you stop going back?
twin babies and massive expansion coming at the same time left me with no chance of 'keeping up'. Equally important was a guild breakup which made me realize my addiction was to the group and not to the game.
4) If PFO mechanically copies the following systems but strings them together into a believable economy and world, how long will you play it before becoming bored?
This all depends on the community much more than the mechanics. If I find nice people to play with I will keep logging on even if bored with the game. If not, well, there will be better solo RPGs.
However, if the (harvest/crafting and community) mechanics mean that I can fulfill a meaningful role despite being online only 8 hr/week, that really is a big boon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting, lets see:
1. Sweet Spot
around 2 months of dedicated play to be able to participate meaningfully.
2. Longest played
DAoC, almost 5 years
3. Why stop
most of the people I knew had stopped playing / lost interest
4. Mechanics
WoW Combat
Hope NOT! WoW Combat is crap of the highest degree. In order to hype their game for organised play they made the combat mechanics quite twitchy and dependant of "winning skills".
This may be fine if you are a pro, being able to click 3 times a second, but it degrades combat between "normal" people to button mashing as it is usually more successful to follow your routine no matter what than taking the time you haven't got to adapt.
Shadowbane building
Was nice but did not work. So not sure what to say.
Can't comment on the others as SF-MMOs are not interesting to me.
#1: A few months at longest to be able to participate in everything.
#2: I think it would Lord Of The Rings Online for about 8 or 10 months.
#3: I would be playing it still probably (I would like to see Isengard!), but after two computer malfunctions I am unwilling to risk it will fry again* - another repair costs are beyond my nonexistent financial capabilities in foreseeable future and my old backup computer is much below required specs (integrated 64MB Gfx, available slots are PCI - old PCIs not PCI-E). This is also why I stopped playing EVE.
#4:
- WoW combat: sometimes boring but managable. I would like to see more need to adapt to circumstances instead of repeating the same sequences all the time. LotRO, while generally using the same basics was a bit better, maybe because of differences in skills themselves.
- EVE Manufacturing: I was mission oriented with some minor manufacturing done in the background. Not very interesting in itself but hadn't occupied too much of my time anyway. I just started to try Planetary Interaction before I had to quit and it looked promising.
- EVE Skill Training: I liked that one, if only training queues were longer than 24 hours. I would also like to get some bonus for actually using the skills in addition to automatic training however.
- I have zero experience with SWG and Shadowbane.
*Small rant:
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Goblin Squad Member
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Curiosity inspires me to ask these questions.
1) What is the "sweet spot" for you all when someone can fully participate in the game (competitively engage in all available activities) with 1 subscription/character? Never? (eg, 10+ years), 5 years? 7.5 years? (How long WoW has been out so far...), 9 years (how long Eve has been out?)
2) What is the LONGEST you have ever played a single MMO. Subscribing without playing doesn't count, nor does a game you went back to several times with big subscription lapses.
I have played MMO's for quite a long time now. I started with Ultima Online and played that for about 2 years solid and then on and off over the years. I then switched to Everquest and played that pretty consistant for about 5 years (really enjoyed the variety of races/classes). Then I took a break from MMO's for awhile and worked on real life things. Then DDO came out and played that for about 2 years solid. Dabbled with WOW after that and really didn't care for the community. Now I am currently looking for next "real deal" and PFO sounds like it might be the one. I own a local game store and we are all Pathfinder loyalist and we all have high hopes that these great ideas become a reality.
3) Why did you stop playing the game you played the longest, if you played in spurts, why did you stop going back?
4) If PFO mechanically copies the following systems but strings them together into a believable economy and world, how long will you play it before becoming bored?
-WoW Combat
-Eve Manufacturing
-Eve Skill Training
-SWG Harvesting
-Shadowbane settlement construction
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. I don't know if I can answer that question at this stage in the development of the game. I do know I never want to be at a point with a single character to be able to do everything in the game. If I decide on playing a Rogue, I never want to be able to tank a dragon or something.
To fully experience the types of things my character should be able to do? 3-4 months.
2. I played DDO for close to 3 years, and then on-and-off again to the present.
3. I hit the level cap, multiple times as they raised it, and couldn't find content for my character that didn't seem repetitive. I also got to the point where I realized my build was fine for a PnP game, but because I didn't take the Toughness Feat, didn't have awesome raid gear (because I think raids are boring and repetitive after a while), and was trying to play a role in combat that didn't exist in most groups (scout / assassin), my character honestly just took up space in the game. Armor class didn't matter any longer, and same level mobs would more or less be capable of one-shotting me.
I occasionally pick the game back up for a week or two since it's free-to-play, but I quit as soon as I remember all the reasons why I dropped the game in the first place. Play a fighter and serve no purpose when all the casters have one-shot kill spells. Play a caster and serve no purpose other than casting set spells at set times. Play a rogue and serve no purpose other than disarming traps for the XP bonus, and a lot of time another character with a splash of rogue would do it instead because they had the better trap disarming gear.
4. I'm not familiar with a lot of those gaming systems. I know that I can't play The Old Republic because of how similar the combat system is to WoW. I just don't like it. I've only played a small amount of SWG and EVE, but I don't really mind the EVE skill system, though it would be nice if there were ways to speed up the training of skills other than waiting for a timer to finish counting down.
I'd probably be ok with the WoW combat system if the rest of the game was great. But it'd be a worse case scenario for me, and if the game was mostly combat (because that's how I chose to play it, I realize), I'd maybe make it a couple of weeks, tops.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... same level mobs would more or less be capable of one-shotting me.
This is exactly the problem Ryan was referring to when he talked about the feedback loop most MMOs fall into making Tanks tougher and tougher to handle tougher and tougher mobs.
I have very high hopes that PFO will not have Tanks tanking 6 mobs at a time, where each of those mobs would 1-2 shot anyone else in the group.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Curiosity inspires me to ask these questions.
1) What is the "sweet spot" for you all when someone can fully participate in the game (competitively engage in all available activities) with 1 subscription/character? Never? (eg, 10+ years), 5 years? 7.5 years? (How long WoW has been out so far...), 9 years (how long Eve has been out?)
2) What is the LONGEST you have ever played a single MMO. Subscribing without playing doesn't count, nor does a game you went back to several times with big subscription lapses.
3) Why did you stop playing the game you played the longest, if you played in spurts, why did you stop going back?
4) If PFO mechanically copies the following systems but strings them together into a believable economy and world, how long will you play it before becoming bored?
-WoW Combat
-Eve Manufacturing
-Eve Skill Training
-SWG Harvesting
-Shadowbane settlement construction
1> My sweet spot would probbly be hours for my level of content, for full game content, about a year. But thats just to be competative, I can go longer to be the top 10%
2> DAoC for 4 years.
3> I quite when they introduced Catacombs with known flaws that were exploited, giving character 3 weeks old RR9 <level 9 for PvP basically> in like a week, when most of spent at least a year achieving it. The people who used the exploited posted they did it, and that AE wouldn't do anything about it, and they didn't. Which was all against the EULA, with nothing done about it.
4> -WoW combat, fail, I would get bored very quick. The other two i havent played. Most games I play I don't get to end content. I get bored and create an alt. Rift was a good change from that, my rogue could be a tank, assassin, ranged, or support. I could PvP, run dungeons, solo, group, or craft. If I got bored of one thing, I could do something else. But i think the main problem is the "Theme Park".
Give me a sandbox with alot things to do at any time <2am-5am>. If I can tweek my house or shop, craft, find a group to adventure, explore on my own, or engage in some PvP at odd hours, I wouldn't get bored. If I log out because I was bored, theres a problem. I played DAoC till I fell asleep at the desk. The RvRvR always kept some action going.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Give me a sandbox with alot things to do at any time <2am-5am>. If I can tweek my house or shop, craft, find a group to adventure, explore on my own, or engage in some PvP at odd hours, I wouldn't get bored. If I log out because I was bored, theres a problem.
This!! And chat! Lots and lots of friendly chat.
1. At least 5 years, probably more like 10+, for whatever amounts to "high end" content. I want to be able to survive with effort as soon as I have my first character created, but I want it to be a struggle. I just want it to go on and on getting better and better.
2. 8 years with minimal lapses.
3. The game changed to easy mode and my rping friends left/moved to another game.
4. I honestly have no idea. I watched my son play WoW and never had any desire to play it. The community just plain sucked.
I barely got past the tutorial in Eve. The community was friendly but it didn't feel like I was a person but a ship. I want hands on stuff. Loved SWG pre change. The harvesting was a lot of fun and I spent hours doing that.
I don't even know what Shadowbane is but I am going to look it up. =)
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) I think it's hard to put a time scale because it's all relative to how the player plays , ie. Power-Gamer vs. Casual. I hope that there isn't "end-game" content like we've been conditioned to. I would like the same sort of activities that are interesting and available from the very beginning continue to be interesting and available throughout my game play experience: exploring, crafting, PVP, world politics, socializing, etc.
2) I played WoW off and on from release (late '04) until November '11. I took a year or two off every so often. The game changed a lot during that time period and from '09-'11 I no longer played it as an MMO. I only logged in to play arena.
3) I stopped playing this last time to try SWTOR which I played for a grand total of three days before I quit. Games like Skyrim and Mount&Blade have kept my attention enough to prevent me from re-subbing. I've tried out Tera and GW:2 betas, but neither have grabbed my attention.
4) WoW combat on a twitch-gaming/PVP level has the most depth of any MMO I've played. Anyone who was a serious arena player would agree with me - however, I don't care or even want PFO to be twitch based. If the game becomes too player skill-based, then people spend all their time complaining about balance, buffing and nerfing. Look at the table-top, there is no twitch based skill there, but it's still a lot of fun. In my head, I imagine PFO to be more like the MUDs I played in the 90s than the MMOs I played in the post-WoW era. In those MUDs combat consisted of "attack mud crab," but it was still fun as hell.
It's analogous to the Game of Thrones HBO series. People don't watch that show because of the combat being great, they watch it because the story sucks them in. That is the way I want to feel about PFO.
In those MUDs combat consisted of "attack mud crab," but it was still fun as hell.Preach on, brother!
Any of you guys ever play Medievia or Materia Magicka? First thing I flashed back to when I first came across the Pathfinder Online blog was running caravans between towns in Medievia. Funny how long it's taken some of these mud features to make their way to graphical games.
My only real MUD experience was Arctic MUD, set in the Dragonlance world.
In many ways, it was the most fun I ever had playing a game. It's a lot easier to describe really complex systems in text than it is to make them work correctly in 3d graphics.
True that, but I think mostly it's been a lack of trying since companies decided after WoW that theme parks were where the real money was at.
There were more innovative MMO's coming out in the early 2000's than there are now. We have PFO being made by some CCP vets/real gamers, World of Darkness by CCP, a bunch of indy projects that are way underfunded and suffer tremendously for it, and over 9000 theme park WoW clones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My only concern about player created content is persistence. As long as unapproved player content exists just for fun, with no lasting rewards, I have no issue. But letting people create their own stuff and run it unchecked will just lead to really exploitable dungeons with uber rewards for no effort. Wealth will quickly become meaningless unless serious restrictions are put in place.