So at the local comic shop two of my players have fallen into serious debate (arguing that is) over the nature of the damage that should be dealt by one of the players weapons while two weapon fighting.
The player's character in question is a half-orc ranger wielding the orc double axe. His strength is either 16 or 17, either way it is a +3.
Player A, who is playing the character whose damage is in question, argues that because he is wielding a weapon that requires 2 hands he gets his 1 and 1/2 his STR modifier to damage to both ends. So both end would deal 1d8+5.
The other player, Player B, argues that his damage should be STR modifier for primary and 1/2 STR modifier for the off hand. So the primary hand deals 1d8+3 and the off hand deals 1d8+1.
Both players have read the rules and come away with different views on their meaning and both make compelling arguments for their view of the rules. Though I side personally with one of the players after viewing the rules myself, I seek the wisdom of the greater whole. I have seen arguments for both sides on the forums and everything in between in some of the older posts.
However as dungeon master I'm not looking to take one player's side over the other and am looking for official clarification.
Assistance would be much appreciated.
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In that case the weapon is functioning as two weapons (a double weapon) and not a two-handed weapon. You would get strength bonus to primary and 0.5 strength bonus to secondary. That guy was just trying to game the system.
If you think of it from an RP perspective, someone swinging a quarter staff as a two handed weapon as a single attack would be making a very different strike that someone swinging a quarter staff as a double weapon as a double attack. In the first case, the person would be gripping the staff near one end. This lengthens the weapon (think of where you grip the weapon as the fulcrum on a lever), making it hit with more force. In the second case you would be gripping the weapon with your hands roughly equi-distant from the center of the weapon. I've trained with jo staff in martial arts, and this is exactly how you do those strikes.
From a game perspective, it would be very unbalancing to give 1.5 strength bonus to both attacks. As far as the rules system goes, using a double weapon is no different that using two weapons as far as bonuses and penalties.
Double Weapons: A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
I really don't see how you can interpret this in any other way than 1x str with mainhand and 1/2 with offhand.
Also the offhand is a lightweapon, so only a -2 if he has the feat.
Player B is correct. If the player makes a single attack using 2 hands with the weapon, it's 1d8+5.
Pretty much what everyone else said. On the other hand, if he simply used one head to attack and 2 hand it, I'd give 1.5 str bonus.
My (derpy) reasoning: using both heads to hit, you will need to put less power (dual wield) into the swing in order to quickly bring around the second hit. If you put your strength into it (2-hand), then it will come down with more force, but won't allow for you to regain momentum for a second swing.
Pretty much what everyone else said. On the other hand, if he simply used one head to attack and 2 hand it, I'd give 1.5 str bonus.
My (derpy) reasoning: using both heads to hit, you will need to put less power (dual wield) into the swing in order to quickly bring around the second hit. If you put your strength into it (2-hand), then it will come down with more force, but won't allow for you to regain momentum for a second swing.
The rules say you can use it two-handed, which includes the 1.5 str bonus, so yes that's possible. But you are not making any additional attacks for TWF then that round.
Quarterstaff still only does 1d6 damage though even then, so there are better two-handed weapons if that's what you plan to do. Or 1d8 for the orc double axe.
So you make the offhand attack with weapon finesse but not the mainhand attack even if both ends of the weapon are the same?
Myself, upon reviewing I initially thought player B was correct. Though I would feel bad if I didn't investigate.
The logic of sacrificing power for speed is a sound one. Now all that's left is make sure player B doesn't rub it in player A's face.
Though most see the rule and come to the correct conclusion, I did see one post in which someone noticed that the entry for double weapons made specific note to the attack penalties but did not specifically mention to treat damage as prim hand/off hand. Though that can be easily inferred, inferred and stated are different things at times.
Is there a errata or more clearly stated version of the double weapon, weapon quality?
also , thanks to all for help
As for double weapons... you don't get your full strength bonus on the off-hand part of a double weapon unless you take the Double Slice feat. The rules for resolving attacks with two weapons work identically no matter if you have two different weapons or one single double weapon.
while you wield a double weapon two-handed... the rules treat it as if you were wielding two weapons one-handed.
Heh... honestly, I kinda wish we'd just dumped double weapons entirely from the game. They're a bit too awkward and goofy, and I still have a nagging feeling they're only in the game because Darth Maul looked pretty cool in the previews to "Phantom Menace" with his double lightsabre...
This is a little off-topic, but I also allow a spear to be used as a double weapon. Spear on one side, staff on the other. It also gives spear users the opportunity to use the bludgeoning end when they fight skeletons and things like that. Of course they would have to enchant the butt end separately if they want it to be magic.