Weapon's fortitude save vs. Remorhaz heat ability


Rules Questions


Under the Remorhaz monster entry, it's heat ability also reads:
"...any weapon that strikes a remorhaz is allowed a DC 19 Fortitude save to avoid taking damage..."

according to this every weapon is entitled to a save, however only magical weapons have a save score...
so:
1. does it uses it's wielder fortitude save? seems kinda off...
2. if it uses only the weapon save score - what's the bonus for non magic weapons ?
3. in 3.5e any held item used it's wielder save score no ? seems kinda weird for fortitude save though... reflex is more understandable.


Been wondering this myself.


Usually you get to use the wielder's saves if they are targeted by save-dependant effects. Usually this is noted in the effect.

I'd say 1. but it's not clear-cut.


Quote:

Damaging Magic Items

A magic item doesn't need to make a saving throw unless it is unattended, it is specifically targeted by the effect, or its wielder rolls a natural 1 on his save. Magic items should always get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to them—even against attacks from which a nonmagical item would normally get no chance to save. Magic items use the same saving throw bonus for all saves, no matter what the type (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will). A magic item's saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down). The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores.

I could have sworn there was text that stated magic items used their owner's saving throws, but that might have been 3.5. Or it might just be in another section. Not sure. In the case of nonmagical items, I'm fairly certain they do get to use their wielder's saving throw bonus. However, if that's the case, it would be just silly for magical items to not be able to use a wielder's saving throw bonus [if it's higher than the item's saving throw bonus].

I can't seem to find the text that indicates that, though, so I'm really not certain. Anyone know if that was a 3.5 holdout or if it's in a different section?

Edit: Interesting, here's this.

Quote:

Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt.

If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.

This MAY only apply to saving throws generated by a natural one. But honestly, with as powerful as a Remorhaz is, anyone fighting it with normal weapons deserves to lose them. In both logical and game mechanical terms, it just makes sense for your nonmagical weapon to be destroyed or damaged upon hitting that critter.

Double Edit: Ah, here we go. As it specifically applies to SPELLS:

Quote:
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level.

So it would seem that no text exists to protect nonmagical items from non-spell or non-Natural-1 effects. Or more specifically, I didn't find anything, which doesn't necessarily mean it isn't there. ;-)


Wow, quite a research you performed there mate :)

I think I agree most with your second paragraph - "with as powerful as a Remorhaz is, anyone fighting it with normal weapons deserves to lose them"
(I don't see any reason why a burly fighter with high constitution should have a better save chance for his sword then a quick and agile fighter with high dex and low con...)

so magic weapons will have their own save, non-magical items would immediately get damaged - bye bye for all your masterwork weapons guys :)

Hmmm.... come to think about it - there's another issue:
Hardness
even non magical wepoans have hardness (usually ~10) and you're suppose to halve energy damage before apply the hardness...

so: 8d6 avverage is 28... divide by 2 is 16 minus the hardness is 6 total damage.
Ok, this will melt most medium & small weapons - while two handed weapons might require 2 hits.

hoever, using the hardness rule on magical weapon - even as simple as +1 sword gives it +10 hp and +2 to hardness.

meaning a shortsword +1, will actually recieve an average of 4 damage, while it require 12 points to be destroyed...

What do you say, should hardness apply to the Remorhaz heat ability ?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

"Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).

Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better."

All items get a save, except that magic items may have a better saving throw in some cases.


Don't forget at a certain point the hardness of a magical Weapon may just Soak up the damage any ways. I ran in to this with a type of demon who has acid and does 2d6 acid damage to all weapons that hit it.


the post is here: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz45t5?Babau-demons-beef-up-2d8-slime#15


wow 8d6 never mind


Gorbacz wrote:

"Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).

Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better."

All items get a save, except that magic items may have a better saving throw in some cases.

Woooooow I feel retarded. That was very obviously in the . . . . breaking items section. I checked magic, and combat, and spells, and . . .

-_-

Thanks, Gorbacz. xD

Quote:
What do you say, should hardness apply to the Remorhaz heat ability ?

Actually, it's better. That's FIRE damage, not damage, which is good. Here's the rules for energy attacks on weapons. Which is right next to the text that Gorbacz quoted.

Quote:
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.

So 8d6 damage, average 28, will do 14 damage to an object. Then apply hardness. Assume hardness of 10 and the item's only taking 4 damage. Still, that's going to make most nonmagical weapons broken (or straight up destroy non-metal weapons), but it's not instant destruction.

This is an important rule that a lot of DMs forget and a lot of players don't know. I've seen parties lose entire armories to a single "easy" critter because they didn't know how this worked. Ouch.

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