Now I first thought of using a rapier character to go into the duelist but after finding about dervish dance and later dawnflower dervish bard archetype, I thought to make that duelist into a ''duelist'' with bard and fighter. So how might I make it work and optimise it to work so my character can be arrogant to a point of flaw?
Yes he will be somewhat goodlike as a neutral character of a NG goddesses servant but still arrogant when his ''abilities'' are concerned.
So I'm wondering with 25 point buy what kind of a build could you craft as a lvl 8 character?
With bard as the main class, what archetype of a fighter should I pick and how to best optimise it, so I won't die in the combat?
I'm thinking of something like this in stats:
Str:10
Dex:16 + 2 (racial, human maybe)
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:13
Cha:14
It is fairly balanced and not min maxing but I'm still trying to optimise it as good as possible.
So what feat choices would you suggest to me and how might you build it to work in the best possible way?
Thank you for your help :)
I'm also making a NG Dawnflower Dervish. :)
I suggest the Blade of Mercy trait, which is available to followers of Saranrae, to do nonlethal with your scimitar. It's nice as an option, and opens up the Enforcer feat. Enforcer + high crit range is nice.
You also certainly want to go for Crane Style and Crane Wing to make use of having the free hand. Whether you decide to take Unarmed Fighter (saves a feat by trading the 1st level bonus feat for Imp. Unarmed Strike AND a style feat) or not is up to you. If you plan anything more than a small dip into fighter I would not do unarmed, the weapon training replacement will not help you.
I think Bard 6 is a good breakpoint if you want to branch out from bard. You get inspire up to +4 at 5th level and 6th gives another versatile performance and suggestion.
Fighters archetypes... the Dawnflower Dervish Fighter is actually pretty cool, though most of its stuff comes at such high level you'll probably never see it. Free Hand Fighter...is actually terrible. Bravery replacement is worse, elusive is kinda nice, but the weapon training replacement advances slower than normal weapon training and precludes you from gloves of dueling.
I would do Lore Warden or Weapon Master for Fighter archetype if using it for anything more than a small dip. Otherwise, Unarmed Fighter.
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As a Dawnflower Dervish you need neither levels of Fighter nor Duelist (unless you really want them for flavor). You're pretty damn good in combat all on your own, really. I mean, by 10th level, your Performances give you a flat +6 on attack and damage, and are begun as a Swift Action! And that's not counting Good Hope or Haste.
For stats I'd go with the following for stats:
Str 8
Dex 16 +2 (we'll continue to assume Human)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 16
If you wanted, you could switch Str and Wis.
This'll let you actually cast spells and have people not instantly beat your DCs, as well as aiding in social skills more generally. You put all your level ups into Dex, obviously.
As an alternate idea, you could drop Cha to 14 (or Con to 12 aqnd wis to 8) and raise Str to 13, so you can grab Power Attack, which might well be worth it.
Feat-wise, Arcane Strike is quite nice, as are maneuver Feats if you want them, and you could actually have Whirlwind Attack if you really wanted to. Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Combat Casting, and Great Fortitude are all also handy. Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display are also options (along with Shatter Defenses), as is Enforcer (if combined the Blade of Mercy trait or a Merciful weapon). Power Attack is gold if you're willing to make the sacrifices to get it.
Skill-wise, you have two Versatile Performances, so use them wisely.
Spell-wise, you go buff spells (both party and personal) with Bladed Dash a definite option (and a fun one).
As a Dawnflower Dervish you need neither levels of Fighter nor Duelist (unless you really want them for flavor). You're pretty damn good in combat all on your own, really. I mean, by 10th level, your Performances give you a flat +6 on attack and damage, and are begun as a Swift Action! And that's not counting Good Hope or Haste.
For stats I'd go with the following for stats:
Str 8
Dex 16 +2 (we'll continue to assume Human)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 16If you wanted, you could switch Str and Wis.
This'll let you actually cast spells and have people not instantly beat your DCs, as well as aiding in social skills more generally. You put all your level ups into Dex, obviously.
As an alternate idea, you could drop Cha to 14 (or Con to 12 aqnd wis to 8) and raise Str to 13, so you can grab Power Attack, which might well be worth it.
Feat-wise, Arcane Strike is quite nice, as are maneuver Feats if you want them, and you could actually have Whirlwind Attack if you really wanted to. Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Combat Casting, and Great Fortitude are all also handy. Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display are also options (along with Shatter Defenses), as is Enforcer (if combined the Blade of Mercy trait or a Merciful weapon). Power Attack is gold if you're willing to make the sacrifices to get it.
Skill-wise, you have two Versatile Performances, so use them wisely.
Spell-wise, you go buff spells (both party and personal) with Bladed Dash a definite option (and a fun one).
Hmm would it really be better as a pure bard than bard/fighter when thinking of combat abilities, you don't get wpn spec and you don't get all the feats that a fighter would but you get casting ability.
What's the AB difference do you know?|
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Hmm would it really be better as a pure bard than bard/fighter when thinking of combat abilities, you don't get wpn spec and you don't get all the feats that a fighter would but you get casting ability.
What's the AB difference do you know?
Well, a Dervish Dancer's attack and damage bonus from dance hits +8 each eventually. Tack on Arcane Strike, and Weapon Focus and that's +9 to hit, +13 damage, while I'm coming up with +11 to hit +8 damage from Fighter's better BAB, Weapon Training, and Feats. Add Good Hope (a Bard only spell), and the Dervish Dancer pulls definitively ahead at +11/+15.
You do lose that 4th attack, though, since everyone's gonna have Haste eventually. And a turn casting Good Hope if you need it.
Bard is better to progress in, because spells are that good.
Your attack bonus will actually be higher, thanks to battle dance (at level 1, you have 1 less BAB but +2 inspire courage; at level 5 you have 2 less BAB but a +4, and so on), your BAB will just be lower, which makes qualifying for things take longer. Like Crane Wing requires BAB +5. You might still find dipping fighter for extra feats and pumping the BAB a little for pre-reqs worthwhile, but sticking to bard overall is best.
Btw, another awesome spell for the Saranrae - blade of mercy - enforcer theme:
Blistering Invective. Do demoralize and fire damage in a cone. Perfect for a sun god devotee!
Bard is better to progress in, because spells are that good.
Your attack bonus will actually be higher, thanks to battle dance (at level 1, you have 1 less BAB but +2 inspire courage; at level 5 you have 2 less BAB but a +4, and so on), your BAB will just be lower, which makes qualifying for things take longer. Like Crane Wing requires BAB +5. You might still find dipping fighter for extra feats and pumping the BAB a little for pre-reqs worthwhile, but sticking to bard overall is best.
Btw, another awesome spell for the Saranrae - blade of mercy - enforcer theme:
Blistering Invective. Do demoralize and fire damage in a cone. Perfect for a sun god devotee!
Alright, what kind of items would you suggest to complete the dawnflower?
Also those spells and feats aren't alignment restricted are they?Wouldn't 2 levels of paladin in a sense aid the character for the amazing cha bonus to saves?
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Alright, what kind of items would you suggest to complete the dawnflower?
The normal big 6 items (though it's a little bit Big 7 for you, since you'll want a Belt of Dex and, eventually, a Headband of Cha). The weapon should be a scimitar, and should likely be made Keen when you can.
Aside from that? I'm...really not coming up with a lot. You've got spells, so you're really pretty self-contained. You should grab a Wand of Cure Light Wounds because everyone with that on their spell list should. Lesser Metamagic Rods are also really good for you (especially Extend and, to a lesser degree, Quicken).
If you lack Power Attack, your damage may be a little low compared to, say, a full BAB character with Power Attack and a Greatsword so anything you can come up with to increase your damage is likely to the good.
Also those spells and feats aren't alignment restricted are they?
A couple things (Blade of Mercy leaps to mind) require worshipping Sarenrae...but that's already required for the Archetype.
Wouldn't 2 levels of paladin in a sense aid the character for the amazing cha bonus to saves?
It delays your spellcasting. That always hurts a lot. You'll already have pretty good Will Saves (especially when buffing with stuff like Good Hope), and amazing Reflex saves. It would help out on that front...but I'd personally say it's not a particularly good idea.
You might want to consider Piranha Strike.
Also Eldritch Heritage (e.g.:Arcane Bloodline for a Familiar and Bonus Spells at Lvl11) is quite nice, if your going Half-Flf for a free Skill Focus.
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You might want to consider Piranha Strike.
Barring House Rules, this isn't actually an option, as it only worksw with light weapons, which a scimitar isn't.
Also, it requires Weapon Finesse, which a Dawnflower Dervish otherwise doesn't need.
Paladin dip is ok, though not needed. If you do it, be sure to be a Divine Hunter, cause I'm not sure how useful Precise Shot will be, but surely more useful than heavy armor prof. when dervish dance requires light armor... Cavalier dip for 2 with Cocktrice order gives you Dazzling Display as a standard action, that's sort of cool. Two levels in Ninja gets a ki pool to spend on extra attacks and opens up ninja tricks you can take w/ Extra Talent. Master of Many Styles also helps you with getting Crane Wing, but unlike Unarmed Fighter costs you BAB. Or just do a level or two in Fighter for the most bonus feats.
But you're better off doing as much bard as possible. EH (arcane bloodline) for a familiar at level 3 is a great option. I also like Improved EH (Marid bloodline) for Water's Fury, but that wouldn't be till level 11 and requires 3 feats with basically no payoff before then. (Once you get there, though, you get a nice line area of effect that damages and blinds, useable at will)
Definitely should go for Crane Wing, if nothing else.
Also can't think of any specifically useful items aside from the basic weapon (with keen) / AC / saves / Dex and Cha stuff. Circlet of Persausion after you have dex and cha +2 might be good. If you can access PF Society, they have some thing that acts like pearl of power for spont. casters. Like deadman said, lesser rods are a bargain for you; extend at the very least is sure to be useful. Bouncing is also handy, and Persistent is worth getting if you use save-based spells alot, especially multi-target ones.
Dance of a Hundred Cuts is an awesome spell to take when of high enough level. It makes you a really great fighter as it adds to AC, attack and damage. At 12th level when you learn it, you get +4 AC, +4 TH, and +4 Damage. Just check the stacking options when combining with other spells and abilities. This is a competence bonus so stacks with most things.
At 15th level Inspire Heroics is the best performance to use, grants you a +8 (dodge bonus) to AC and a +8 (morale) to saves, so now combined with the Hundred Cuts spell above you are near unhittable and should make almost every saving throw. Dodge bonuses to AC always stack which is why this is so great.
Add a Haste and some other buffs and you are a whirling dervish of death with the scimitar. Take improved Critical too since the scimitar has a good threat range already.
Well, a Dervish Dancer's attack and damage bonus from dance hits +8 each eventually. Tack on Arcane Strike, and Weapon Focus and that's +9 to hit, +13 damage, while I'm coming up with +11 to hit +8 damage from Fighter's better BAB, Weapon Training, and Feats. Add Good Hope (a Bard only spell), and the Dervish Dancer pulls definitively ahead at +11/+15.
You do lose that 4th attack, though, since everyone's gonna have Haste eventually. And a turn casting Good Hope if you need it.
You should basically just treat them like they are full BAB chaacters.
A fighter has: +20 BAB, +4 Weapon training= +24 before items.
The Dawnflower Dervish Bard has: +15 BAB, +8 from their inspire courage= +23 before items.
Fighter will of course pull ahead with certain things like gloves of dealing and greater weapon focus (and maybe mutagenic warrior archetype for mutagens too for another +4)... but this bard still generally gets up to the same levels of things like barbarians.
The only thing that holds dawnflower dervishes back is the fact that everyone wants to go with the silly 1 handed/1 weapon style. So all that bonus damage simply acts to play catch up (heck, even swashbucklers, that get their level in bonus to damage, are mostly just playing catch up for most of their careers- the bonus inspire courage and arcane strike doesn't entirely cut it). Since they use a lot of 'static bonuses on every hit', they make fantastic TWF or archery characters. Even 2 handing still brings them to a respectable level.
If he insists in dipping into something full BAB, I would advise brawler. They can grab a better version of TWF with their flurry, so you could do a TWF style with one weapon.
Dance of a hundred cuts is a morale bonus, so it doesn't stack with heroism or good hope.
If your DM allows it, the Azata-Blooded variant of Aasimar is pretty perfect for this bard. +2 DEX and CHA, +2 to Perform (as it doesn't specify which perform, you could argue for ALL :D).
The Favored Class bonus used to be sweet (+1/2 effective level for one bardic performance, making prestige classing very much an option), but not anymore (it's now +1/6). However, you could have Scion of Humanity and use your Favored Class Bonus for extra spells, or always just get that good old HP.
With a 25 point buy (nice), I would go:
STR 7
DEX 18 (20 after racial modifiers)
CON 16
INT 7
WIS 7
CHA 16 (18 after racial modifiers)
I realize this stat block isn't popular (a lot of stat dumps), but I don't see it as that bad.
One of the biggest things you'd need strength for is carrying capacity, and you have light armor. Later, for only 1k gp, you can get muleback cords for an effective 15 STR for carrying.
With 7 INT, you still get 4 skills a level. Since you get Versatile Performance, just max out Perform (Dance), (Oratory), (Comedy or Percussion), and Perception. Later, if you were so inclined, you could pick up a +2 INT item, and get full ranks in Spellcraft (or a +4 item, for Spellcraft and actual ranks in Use Magic Device, if you plan of getting a UMD familiar....See Below). With Versatile Performance, this gives you full ranks in: Acrobatics, Fly, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Intimidate, and Bluff or Handle Animal, possibly all with a racial +2, all using your Charisma modifier. At level 14, you could get expanded versatility to add Use Magic Device as a Perform skill. Also, you have full ranks in Perception, and with that INT item, Spellcraft. It works.
Wisdom would hurt your will saves (-2). Will saves are one of your strong saves, and if you did dip 2 levels in Paladin, it'd shore it up.
You have so many options with this sort of build, it's kinda crazy.
Dips kinda hurt. Not only are your spells delayed, but your bardic performance is, as well. A trait can give you back 2 caster levels, but you'll still be behind.
You have to worship a NG deity, but you don't have to be NG. As far as I'm aware, there are no alignment issues on just worshiping a deity, only on being a caster for one. Even then, one half step can make you LG (for pally or monk dips), or be True Neutral if you wanted your character to be overly arrogant and self-absorbed. You cast arcane, not divine, so I'd vote you can be any alignment you want.
2 level dip into Paladin gives you a nice boost to saves, 1 Smite Evil/day (CHA mod to attack and AC, auto-bypass DR, +2 damage for the whole fight), good for the big bad boss fight.
If you wanted to be mounted, you can get the Nature Soul and Animal Ally feats for an Animal Companion. 1 level dip into Sohei, and you can use your bonus feat for Mounted Skimisher (probably not RAI, but there's been no clarification, and this is kinda how it reads). Melee characters have it hard, because you can't full attack every turn. With Mounted Skirmisher, your mount can move its speed, and you still full attack. A horse with Horseshoes of Speed could move 80 feet with it's move action, and you full attack, every turn. Make it a Charger archetype, and give it full plate. Enchant the full plate with Advancing and, eventually, Dread Wing. Have a +1 Hosteling Tower Shield strapped to your back to use as a pokeball while you're in a dungeon (or otherwise can't have your mount out). Don't use the Tower Shield for anything other than Animal Companion storage; it'd be worthless in combat, for you.
The Undersized Mount feat might make things easier. Medium sized mount for your medium sized character. Just make it have big muscles, to carry you and it's armor, and stuff.
With Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), you get a familiar, and a small handful of Wizard spells (Permanency? Contingency?). If you are Lawful Neutral, get Improved Familiar for am Arbiter Inevitable. He can interpret any speech, and you can get a staff crafted for you that has Shield Other on it. Have at least one Bard spell crafted in, so you can recharge it. Arbiters have hands, so they can Use Magic Device that staff (if you put actual ranks in UMD, so they can use your ranks), and take half of your damage for hours (possibly all day), and not die (mostly). If you had UMD through Perform (something your familiar couldn't share), you could use the Familiar Metamagic Rod (I think?), or just have the spell crafted as a Familiar Spell, as a 5th level spell.
Just keep him in a bag so you can tote his unconscious body. Remember, for this combo, you have to be neutral, so your character shouldn't be too overwhelmed with guilt for this tactic.
If you did grab that Permanency Spell, you could Reduce Person permanently on yourself. Sure, you catch -2 STR, but you gain +2 DEX, +1 to attack/AC, and you can have a medium sized mount (easier to ride in dungeons).
Arcane Strike is fun.
Without a mount, Dimensional Dervish can be okay (though it has a high resource requirement, and comes late. Also, can't be used with Arcane Strike). With Retraining rules, you can have the whole feat chain at level 10. But I'd just go with the mount, personally.
Oh man, I've been typing for ages. I could think of a lot more advice, but I'mma slow down for the time being.
Oops, one last thing. If Words of Power is being used, you could always pick up Experimental Spellcaster, and add Accelerate to your spell list.
A level 2 spell, gives everyone within 10 feet Pounce, effectively (you get another move action every turn, to do non-magical things). Lasts 1 round/level. You get 1/2 your CL worth of "Boosts". You can use 1 Boost to make the spell affect everyone within 20 feet instead. You can also use 1 Boost to let a target trade out it's extra move action for an extra attack, when full attacking.
This Pounce-y spell gets rid of your need to Dimensional Dervish, or be mounted; it helps your whole party. It can be wand-ed or staff-ed so your UMD Arbiter familiar can cast it for you on the first round of combat.
Words of Power kinda suck, but if you just have this one thing, it won't be too confusing, and it's quite nice, I think. You could start fooling around with more feats, and more effect words, but not if I was your DM. I'd allow maybe one, but as I said, Words of Power suck.
If you're focusing on the martial side of Bard, using Dawnflower Dervish, and have a 25-point-buy to throw around, you could easily pull-off a STR/DEX dual-wield Bard wielding two Effortless Lace scimitars or a scimitar and a light shield. Stacking doubled Inspire Courage and other Bard buffs on two weapons is a shredding-machine. Something like Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 15/17DEX, 14CON, 11INT, 10WIS, 14CHA, will take care of all the DEX you'll ever need, and Quick Draw (or Improved Shield Bash instead with light shield) plus Two-Weapon Fighting (plus Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 9) is all the feats you'd need to do it. Once you can stack something like +4 Inspire Courage, +2 Arcane Strike, +2 Good Hope, +1d6 Deliquescent Gloves = +11.5 damage onto two weapons, things tend to die in a hurry.
....just realized the original post was five years ago :|
I was curious how long until people realized that.