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There's been a lot of discussion on these boards about the problems with monks, and how to fix them, and why to fix them, and what the monk should be that it isn't, and so forth. Along the way, I got to thinking-- does Pathfinder even need the monk class at all? Think about it- a lot of the monk's abilities are suspiciously similar to feats or spells, which several other classes could get just as easily.
So here's my challenge to the people of the Paizo boards: Can you build a "monk" character without it actually being a monk? My rules are:
1)The character must "feel" like a monk-- it should do everything you expect a monk to be able to do.
2)It can have levels in any class from any Paizo book... except monk.
3)Build to Level 12-- the PFS max level.
4)Take a few sentences to explain why your character is a monk, and whether or not you think an actual monk would do it better.
I think this would be a good thought experiment, because it explores what players expect the monk to be and whether or not the monk as it stands does what players want it to. Plus, we all love building characters, right? I'll add a few of my own ideas when I have some more time to think on it.
Isn't the reason we're all asking for an improved monk because other classes are better at being a Monk than the Monk? I'm pretty sure that's why. Your thesis is already proven. :(
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Isn't the reason we're all asking for an improved monk because other classes are better at being a Monk than the Monk? I'm pretty sure that's why. Your thesis is already proven. :(
When I brought this up in the other thread I got shouted down fairly quickly. Also, people seemed sure that the monk has a "warrior poet" flavor to it that the other classes can't capture. I want to find out if that's true, or if that flavor is even integral to what people want out of monks.
Plus it seemed like fun. We all play Pathfinder here, we must all enjoy character-building ideas, right?
a monk?
a fighter does it better
so does a ninja
or even a barbarian
they may not have the most unarmed attacks, but thier attacks hit harder.
a properly built inquisitor can do it better too.
inquisitor has buff spells and judgement/bane and worshipping irori can give them free improved unarmed strike, or they can wear brass knuckles with no penalty
ninja has sneak attack and swift action invisibility. they can gain monk like damage, or they can simply use brass knuckles.
a fighter has weapon specialization/training/gloves of dueling which can be combined with brass knuckles at no damage loss.
a barbarian has rage and REAL full bab. they can also use furious weapons. which can be an interesting enchantment on thier brass knuckles.
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1. Start with cleric
2. Shave a circle at the back of the scalp.
3. Dress in brown, unflattering garments with a rope sash.
4. Done.
^
This
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You know I see a lot of people saying that all of these classes are better at being a monk than monks are, but do i see anything resembling a build or even any examples of ways the are better at being a monk? No! So I am calling you all out. If it is so easy then show me instead of just dismissing the OP with comments of it is easy to do so I'm just not going to bother with it.
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Half-Orc Beast Totem Barbarian 12 with a Brawler, Superstition, Improved Unarmed Strike, Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Multiattack, Toothy, Sacred Tatoos, and an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Wears light armor (or has a Pearl of Power for his local Wizard to use Mage Armor on him).
So, 8 attacks a turn (at better than Monk bonuses) between 1d4 and 1d8 damage (and 5 of them at close to max BAB), plus enhancement, plus half strength (full strength on 5 of them), that he can pounce with, moving 80 feet a round charging and full attacking, maxed out Acrobatics, Uncanny Dodge (or DR 6), vastly more HP than a Monk, a +2 AC from class alone, really good saves, and (in short) just flat-out better at everything that monks are suposed to do than they are.
I mean, technically, he lacks Dimension Door, self-healing (though Renewed Vigor fixes that), and slow fall (but a Ring of Feather Falling fixes that), and is slightly slower (though at 40 ft he's doing alright, especially if Hasted), and a few other incidentals. But the Monk's actual role? That he's flat-out better at. If, perhaps, not an optimized character otherwise.
Now, thematically, he's a bit different, but flavor can always be adjusted slightly, while mechanics are quite a bit harder.
I don't have enough time to go into enough detail to do a level 12 char but as a start:
Human survivalist rogue/unarmed fighter
Start with two levels rogue then go fighter
Prime stat Dex
Traits:
sacred touch - your hand can heal as well as kill
feats:
Dodge - 1st level feat
belier's bite - human bonus feat
Improved unarmed strike - automatic for unarmed fighter
crane style - 3rd level feat
crane wing - 1st level fighter bonus feat
go on with scorpion style feat as next
Rogue talent:
Expert leaper, ki Pool or Wall climber ninja trick
Skills:
Acrobatic 3 at level 3 to get +1AC when using defensive fighting
armor: you can use light armor but later when using defensive fighting all the time you can stop using it.
Weapon:
Normally no weapon is used
if AC is an issue having a weapon with the blocking ability in one hand grants +1 shield bonus
All in all you get decent damage if able to deal sneak attack and have a good defence when using defensive fighting.
The latter grants -2 to attack and +5 AC (+4 dodge and +1 shield)together with dodge it's an AC of 16 + Dex mod without wearing armor.
So you got a AC similar to a monk, have no flurry but deal more damage per attack.
depending on the rogue talent you chose you can do jump feats similar to a monk or can move as fast for some rounds per day or climb walls better than the monk could to.
With more levels you can have it all using more rogue talents.
Hey guys, just made a pretty cool build that i am planning on playing myself at some point in the future, and most definately better monk than any monk.
I have cheated a little with him and used 2 levels of manouver master monk. This is only because i really like crane style, and would not really be necesary unless u want both crane and dragon style active (like i do)
anyway here is the build.
Str: 16 + 2 level + 2 human + 4 belt = 26
Dex: 16 + 1 level + 2 stone = 19
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 10
Cha 8
Saves:
Fort +15, reflex +10 will: +9
Ac: 10 + 4dex + 2 amulet + 2 ring + 9 armor + 1 stone = 28
Hp: 10 + 9d10 + 2d8 + 24 = 92
Feats: imp unarmed strike (monk), crane style (monk), crane wing(monk), dragon style, power attack, dragon ferocity, weapon specialization, two wp fighting, imp 2 wp fighting, iron will, imp critical (axe knuckles), crane reposte, improved wp focus (axe knuckle), greater 2 wp fighting.
Abilities: evasion, menacing stand, no escape, close combatant, close control, stunning fist,
Items: cloak of resistance: +3 (9k), amulet of natural armor +2 (4k), ring of protection +1 (2k), +4 str belt (16k), +3 mithral breat plate (13k), 2 * +3 axe knuckles (36k), boots of striding and springing ,(5.5k), ring of feather falling (2.2k), , cracked pale green prism (4k), deep red sphere (8k), dusty red prism (5k), locked gauntlets for axe knuckles.
Level 1 fighter: weapon focus (axe knuckles), two weapon fighting, double slice
Level 2 monk: crane style
Level 3 monk: crane wing, dragon style
Level 4 fighter: exotic wp prof (axe knuckle)
Level 5 fighter: dragon ferocity
Level 6 fighter: power attack
Level 7 fighter: imp two weapon fighting
Level 8 fighter: wp specialization (axe knuckle)
Level 9 fighter: improved critical (axe knuckles)
Level 10 fighter: crane reposte
Level 11 fighter: improved wp focus
Level 12 fighter: greater 2 wp fighting,
Attack sequence is
+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1 and + 2 + 1wpf + 1 iwpf + 3 wp + 8 str + 1 stone = + 16 ie
+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15 for 1d6 + 4 close + 12 str + 3 wp + 2 wp spec = 24.5
+22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12 for 1d6 + 4 close + 12 str + 3 wp + 2 wp spec = 30.5 with power attack, and an extra 4 damage on first attack.
That is an average DPR of 120.8
He has feather fall, and stunning fist. Runs around beating people with his knuckle weapons.
His skills are acrobatics and climb (maxed) and with a -0 armor check from the breast plate, he will have +23 climb and +18 acrobatics, and has feather fall. He can parry 1 attack each round, and can then strike back due to crane style, and if people move away from him he gets attacks of opportunity. Combine that with a 40f speed and negating difficult terain on charge. He is also extremely difficult to use combat manouvers on, atleast bull rush, drag, disarm and reposition. It is also difficult to cast spells next to him due to a -4 modifier from close control, and if you really want to anoy spell casters getting disruptive would be nice, maybe instead of improved crit. So with a higher AC, HP and damage than a regular monk, plus that he would be a lot more annoying for enemies to deal with, I think he is a lot better monk than any pure monk.