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So, we had the discussion again, does prehensile hair stay a secondary attack when used as the only attack? I know the discussion on the boards, but it is explicitly worded this way, that it is a secondary natural attack. Or is there anywhere something official, that states, if you use prehensile hair as your only attack, it is a primary, using your normal BAB without -5 and 1.5 times your strength, or in this case INT modifier?
As said, there is nothing official, and would be happy, if someone could point me to something official.
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls.
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Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
It's specified as a secondary attack so that you know how to treat it if a witch has other, primary natural attacks as well. If that's the witch's only natural attack, if ze doesn't attack with a weapon in the same full-attack action, then it uses a full base attack bonus and adds 1.5 of hir INT modifier to damage. If the witch attacks with a weapon and the hair as part of a full attack action, or if ze has a natural weapon listed as primary on table "Natural Attacks by Size" in the Universal Monster Rules in the Bestiary, then it gets -5 to attack and applies .5 INT Bonus on damage.
I know this, my problem is, where is the rulings so RAW can be used, as one in our group does not accept it. He says, the rules say it is a secondary attack specifically, so it stays that way, whether it is used as the only attack or not.
Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
Bolded portion. Found in Bestiary 2 universal monster rules section on the prd
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/universalMonsterRules .html#natural-attacks
I know this, my problem is, where is the rulings so RAW can be used, as one in our group does not accept it. He says, the rules say it is a secondary attack specifically, so it stays that way, whether it is used as the only attack or not.
I'm sorry, but there is no need for any rulings, because the RAW are quite clear on the subject. For what is worth I agree with the previous posters, and I think your friend is wrong.
Regarding RAI I don't know (obviously), but it'd be strange if the developers didn't know the one-natural-attack-only-is-always-primary rule.
Now his argument is:
This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one.
and: Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
and Prehensile hair is specifically denoted as a secondary natural attack (as e.g., bite attack of a half-orc) therefore it cannot ever be used as a primary natural attack.
Now his argument is:
This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one.
Uff... the tiny little "natural" word is missing here... I think that the developers intended to say "the increase does not apply if the creature has multiple NATURAL attacks..." but I'm not sure. However I find really hard to believe that the witch unarmed strike (the only other attack that's probably available to the witch) counts against this limit.
BTW, are there other instances when a PC could gain a single secondary natural attack or this is a kind of unique situation?
If the witch had no arms, then the prehensile hair would become primary, but so long as she can hold a weapon, or slap, then it is secondary by the "This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one" rule.
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Player Characters of the core races (with the exception of monks and the occasional barbarian with the rage power that grants a bite attack) don't normally get natural attacks, so you're not normally going to find natural attacks listed outside of the "monster" rules. The part you should be paying attention to is "Universal" not "Monster." They're the universal rules for those kinds of attacks. Many "monsters" can be played as characters.
The witch's hair doesn't fall under the types of listed attacks because prehensile hair attacks were added to the game later. They're still a natural attack though, so follow natural attack rules.
If a witch has prehensile hair attacks and unarmed strikes, she doesn't have any other attacks. Without the hair attack she's "unarmed."
If the witch has weapons in-hand and is able to use them, then no, she can't make natural attacks as primary attacks. If secondary natural attacks are treated as primary natural attacks when they're the only attack form available, as stated in the rule listed above, then the witch can use her secondary natural attack as a primary attack when she's unarmed, provided she doesn't have any other natural attacks.
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The way this is generally interpreted as I've seen it is that if the witch with prehensile hair has no other weapon readied, then the prehensile hair is a primary natural attack and gains all the benefits thereof. Otherwise, if he/she is brandishing a dagger or holding a bow, then the prehensile hair is a secondary natural attack.
This seems to work fine.
I would be interested in knowing what the PFS rules around prehensile hair are.
The interesting thing is, that SKR answered the question in this thread http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz43wt?Prehensile-Hair-skill-use , and also explains why these rule weirdness things happen. They just should make it official in the FAQ for Ultimate Magic and some discussions would never arise.
But you can go back to If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. and then you are back at the beginning and go through the whole chain again. And you can easily come from the other side, as there are enough rules covering it. As said, a specific statement in the FAQ would help.
When one is using a manufactured weapon in a full attack action, including an unarmed strike which is not considered a natural weapon for the purposes of this rule, all natural attacks used in the same full attack action receive a -5 to attack and a .5 to damage bonus (from STR or whatever other attribute applies in a particular case). That's what the rules state, they don't say that just holding a blade or a staff makes the hair work less well. Holding a blade or staff is not the same as attacking with it. A witch holding a dagger can choose to attack with only her hair, her sole natural weapon attack, and have full BAB and 1.5 INT bonus to it. In addition, even if she has attacked with the dagger and her hair in a full attack action that turn, if someone provokes an attack of opportunity, which with a 10ft reach is easy to do, she can attack with the hair at full BAB and 1.5 INT bonus because the penalty only applies to full attack actions.
If the witch has a non-hair primary natural attack, then it changes, suppose you had a werewolf witch in hybrid form. Her primary natural attack would be a bite, and her hair would be a secondary attack, ALWAYS getting a -5 to BAB and .5 INT bonus to damage. It's not entirely logical but it's what the rules state.
Yes, hair is a secondary natural attack. There are other creatures with only secondary natural attacks, and they get full BAB and damage with them. Example: a horse trained for battle; hooves are secondary natural attacks, and the battle training gets around the Docile special quality, so the horse's hooves would have +3 to attack and 1d4+4 to damage (if I did the math right).
Correction: if you have two primary natural attacks, that's true. If one is primary and one is secondary, it works differently. There doesn't appear to be any special rule about having multiple secondary attacks, so you'd get the secondary penalty to all natural attacks if you had more than one secondary attack but no primary attacks.