Just a quick question does the skeletal champion/juju zombie/zombie lord count as a base for applying variant zombie templates? Since it is created with a more powerful spell (create undead) rather then animate dead.
Or is it treated as a variant I.E you consider the undead to have double HD+ any other variants you wish to apply (like brain eating and fast) for telling if you can create it in one casting of create undead.
(To create something equal to your cast level you can only create one, if you want to stack up to 2 more variants you must be in the area of a desecrate spell.)
Hmmm, interesting question.
I'd say no for the skeletal champion for a start, as a matter of principle, since it's basically just a bundle of bones, whereas zombies, while not "fresh", has a bit more meat on them.
As for the other two, according to the Pathfinder SRD ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/zombie )it specifically say in the Zombie templates
"may be applied to either skeletons or zombies, unless common sense dictates otherwise (such as a gasburst skeleton)."
I think once you've applied one template to a zombie/skeleton, you can' apply another. I'm not sure about that though, as I think I've seen examples of "double-dipped" undead in some books. Can't remember which ones though.
Each of the following skeleton types modifies the base skeleton in a few key ways. Except as noted, these variations can be stacked with one another—it’s possible to have a bloody burning skeletal champion.
Correct, to have a variant with your own HD it would be the only thing created. If in the area of desecrate you could stack up to 3 variations. In Pathfinder, a double double is always a triple
Each of the following skeleton types modifies the base skeleton in a few key ways. Except as noted, these variations can be stacked with one another—it’s possible to have a bloody burning skeletal champion.Correct, to have a variant with your own HD it would be the only thing created. If in the area of desecrate you could stack up to 3 variations. In Pathfinder, a double double is always a triple
Therefore, applying Juju Zombie, Bloody, and Brain eating to a corpse of my own HD would count as HD x4? I.E if created in the area of a desecrate it would be the only thing I could create with that particular casting of Create Undead, correct?
Am I correct in deducing that the basic question here is whether or not templates can be stacked? If so, the general question is yes. You can have, for example, a fiendish dire bear. Or a celestial fiendish dire bear. Or a celestial fiendish dire bear skeleton. Creepy.
Unfortunately, looking over the proposed undead templates, they all say, “[Critter]” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead), referred to hereafter as the base creature. So it would seem that you can't stack these particular templates. That's RAW, unless I'm much mistaken (quite possible, happened only two hours ago in another thread ;-) ).
Or are we discussing the possibilities behind allowing template stacking in these instances (house-ruling it, essentially)? First, houserules are entirely the DM's purview, so what we say on here doesn't matter except for what makes enough sense to allow Elias to present his case to his DM. Second, going the logic route is pretty silly. What does it matter what templates you can or cannot apply because of the "flesh content" of the subject, already-undead creature? Flesh reconstitution already has 1st level spell precedent, so that shouldn't be an issue, even logically. The real question that should be addressed is balance.
For most, again I say most, undead templates, stacking them won't cause much harm. A bloody skeleton champion isn't inappropriately challenging or unchallenging. It's all more fun, and that's what's important . . . Assuming it is fun, heh.
Elias, you're the player in this circumstance, right? I would suggest creating the monsters you're proposing to use for your necromancer and presenting them to your DM. Create similarly powerful, "legal" undead critters of the same CR so that he can compare their relative power levels. They should be pretty similar. If they are, he likely won't have a problem with them.
Good luck. :)
It is clearly possible to have a Bloody, Burning, Skeletal Champion. That combination is specifically mentioned in the Bestiary entry:
Each of the following skeleton types modifies the base skeleton in a few key ways. Except as noted, these variations can be stacked with one another—it’s possible to have a bloody burning skeletal champion.
So the OP's question should not be answered as "Can you do this?" so much as "What is process required?"
The only description is that they each count as 2x the normal HD of monsters when using animate dead ... meaning you can create fewer per casting, and each costs more than a simple skeleton. Note that "double" in Pathfinder usually means "+100% of the base", so 2 doubles is effectively a triple.
A Bloody Burning Skeletal Human Warrior 1 Champion (like the sample in the Bestiary) would be 3HD (Skeletal Champion) + 3 HD (Bloody) + 3 HD (Burning) = 9 HD of undead.
Note that "double" in Pathfinder usually means "+100% of the base", so 2 doubles is effectively a triple.
That is false. Two doubles is a quadrupling for anything with one exception. The rule you cite is for adding multiplier to a roll.
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
Don't feel bad, I've been seeing a few posters get confused on this.
Note that "double" in Pathfinder usually means "+100% of the base", so 2 doubles is effectively a triple.That is false. Two doubles is a quadrupling for anything with one exception. The rule you cite is for adding multiplier to a roll.
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
Don't feel bad, I've been seeing a few posters get confused on this.
I don't feel bad :). I originally was estimating at doubling the double, to a total of 12 HD required to create a Bloody Burning Skeletal Champion. That might be correct, but it felt a little high to me, so I thought about the two-doubles-is-a-triple, and that seemed more appropriate overall (as each doubles the HD, but that could be read as 'each doubles the original HD'). I should have explained that, rather than just stating it.
Ok so it is not just a +1 to the multiplier when creating a variant skeleton/zombie?
Also since Zombie Lord/Juju/Champion is created with a stronger spell (create undead + Enervation) is it considered a variant or is that used as the base for creating intelligent undead?
Ok so it is not just a +1 to the multiplier when creating a variant skeleton/zombie?
Also since Zombie Lord/Juju/Champion is created with a stronger spell (create undead + Enervation) is it considered a variant or is that used as the base for creating intelligent undead?
Do you have a reference for creating Skeletal Champions in general? The bestiary lists them under the variants of skeletons made with animate dead, and the create undead spell does not mention them.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead
the section of skeletal champion/juju zombie is from Undead Revisited by Paizo. as is a number of these creatures. Unfortunately besides a table, it doesnt really say much.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead
the section of skeletal champion/juju zombie is from Undead Revisited by Paizo. as is a number of these creatures. Unfortunately besides a table, it doesnt really say much.
Ok, well, that opens a new "can of worms".
Undead Revisited is not part of the RPG line... which is the assumed baseline rules. It is part of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting line, which is specific to Golarion (though easily adaptable to any other campaign world).
As such, the people working on this book are not the same people who work on the RPG line.
That means that it is unclear whether this is a Golarion-based rule change, a mistake (not realizing that the core rules do not put the Skeletal Champion under Create Undead), or a prelude to a rule change in the RPG line that just has not happened yet.
Until then (and even after, really), it is up to your GM to decide which is the way s/he wants to play it.