I spent some time this morning thinking about the cavalier, and checking my books, I noticed something. I have two books that have pictures of Alain (the iconic cavalier) in them. He's featured three times in the Advanced Players Guide, and once in whichever Bestiary features the Ogre Spider (which he's featured fighting). Four pictures total, and he's riding his mount in exactly none of them.
A lot of the problem with selling people on the cavalier is that many of the class features are tied to the mount, and for a lot of people Pathfinder/D&D doesn't really feature much mounted combat. For better or worse, artwork goes a long way towards determining how players envision the game world, and when Pathfinder products feature the iconic mounted combat expert never engaging in mounted combat, it impacts how much use the cavalier class gets.
It's just a thought, and I might be wrong, but it would be nice to see some artwork of Alain doing what cavaliers do best.
I think problem is a bit of a stretch. Just because her mount isn't there, doesn't mean much. If you never see a spellcaster summoning an elemental, it doesn't mean that they can't or don't.
The majesty of Alain's steed is such that mere artwork cannot hope to depict it.
Also, wow, just realized that Alain's name is a goofy film school joke.
Wouldn't including the mount take up a lot fo space in the book and then the book will have less awesome stuff?
I think problem is a bit of a stretch. Just because her mount isn't there, doesn't mean much. If you never see a spellcaster summoning an elemental, it doesn't mean that they can't or don't.
But the thing is, we DO see the other classes showing off their class features and specialties. We've got lots of art featuring Lem singing, Seelah turning undead, and Seoni blasting things. Summoning an elemental is one of the many, many things that a spellcaster can do, but mounted combat is a major part of the cavalier. A more apt comparison would be if there was an iconic elementalist, and we never saw said elementalist summoning an elemental. And, yeah, I'd think that was a bad choice, too.
Wouldn't including the mount take up a lot fo space in the book and then the book will have less awesome stuff?
This supposes that mounts aren't awesome, which reinforces my point that Pathfinder isn't doing a very good job of selling the cavalier as a class.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Also, wow, just realized that Alain's name is a goofy film school joke.How so?
Yeah, I'm curious about that, too, as I went to film school and I'm not getting the reference. There are a few subtle film references in the naming of some fairly large elements in the campaign setting, but as far as I know, no one's discovered them.
I think problem is a bit of a stretch. Just because her mount isn't there, doesn't mean much. If you never see a spellcaster summoning an elemental, it doesn't mean that they can't or don't.But the thing is, we DO see the other classes showing off their class features and specialties. We've got lots of art featuring Lem singing, Seelah turning undead, and Seoni blasting things. Summoning an elemental is one of the many, many things that a spellcaster can do, but mounted combat is a major part of the cavalier. A more apt comparison would be if there was an iconic elementalist, and we never saw said elementalist summoning an elemental. And, yeah, I'd think that was a bad choice, too.
Amusingly, your example-- a summoner never summoning-- rings kind of empty because Balthazar, the iconic summoner, is summoning his eidolon in his artwork.
Alain's mount needs to be at least half as awesome as Kokuoh
Contributor
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Yeah, I'm curious about that, too, as I went to film school and I'm not getting the reference. There are a few subtle film references in the naming of some fairly large elements in the campaign setting, but as far as I know, no one's discovered them.Also, wow, just realized that Alain's name is a goofy film school joke.How so?
Here. Obscure? Accidental? Je pense.
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We'll put Alain on a horse eventually.
Will it be a Horse with No Name?
Will it be a Horse with No Name?We'll put Alain on a horse eventually.
Only in osirion and katapesh desert scenes.
Only in osirion and katapesh desert scenes.Will it be a Horse with No Name?We'll put Alain on a horse eventually.
Oh it will feel good for Alain to get out of this rain
At least in those lands, they will remember his name.
As sung by bards from Andoran, no doubt.
But Alain's horse is named Donahan who may not have yet been pictured but has been celebrated in verse at least twice.
And no one to will give him any pain
And lo! As i said: they remembered his name!
As sung by bards from Andoran, no doubt.
But Alain's horse is named Donahan who may not have yet been pictured but has been celebrated in verse at least twice.
Aren't these two verse sections you mentioned written by you? Of course you'd shoot down the Horse with No Name theory
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Here. Obscure? Accidental? Je pense.Yeah, I'm curious about that, too, as I went to film school and I'm not getting the reference. There are a few subtle film references in the naming of some fairly large elements in the campaign setting, but as far as I know, no one's discovered them.Also, wow, just realized that Alain's name is a goofy film school joke.How so?
That must be it. As I've never heard of him or any of his movies, I'm going with accidental. Then again, I wasn't at Paizo when he was named, so it's possible someone involved in the process knows more about obscure French cinema than I do.
Then again, I wasn't at Paizo when he was named, so it's possible someone involved in the process knows more about obscure French cinema than I do.
Sounds like Erik. :)
To be fair there are some mounted combat pictures in the Inner sea world guide in the four pages on Taldor and Qadria. there is also a picture of a leader on a horse in Lastwall. The knight of golarion playercompanion might have one.
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Here. Obscure? Accidental? Je pense.Yeah, I'm curious about that, too, as I went to film school and I'm not getting the reference. There are a few subtle film references in the naming of some fairly large elements in the campaign setting, but as far as I know, no one's discovered them.Also, wow, just realized that Alain's name is a goofy film school joke.How so?
Peut etre.
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Here. Obscure? Accidental? Je pense.Yeah, I'm curious about that, too, as I went to film school and I'm not getting the reference. There are a few subtle film references in the naming of some fairly large elements in the campaign setting, but as far as I know, no one's discovered them.Also, wow, just realized that Alain's name is a goofy film school joke.How so?
Definitely accidental. When naming the new APG iconics, we collected a variety of names for each one, then had a meeting when we voted on the names we liked best. The majority liked Alain for the cavalier.
I have no memory now of who originally submitted that name, but I pretty sure it was just coincidence. You'll note that Alain has no ranks in Profession (film director), for instance. ;)
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So what your telling me here is Alain was not named after The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire member and football hooligan Alan Knight, MBE?
: )
Not that it matters, but it's the second named Alain we have in the setting.
Stephen Greer wrote Alain Always, Absalom's Ivy District Councilman and theatre guru In U2 Gallery of Evil
Before anybody rolls their eyes, I don't actually think it matters in the slightest. Just that he is a theatre guy, so it adds to the coincidence.
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Alain's horse is like Calvin's tiger: it's only real to him.
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As sung by bards from Andoran, no doubt.
But Alain's horse is named Donahan who may not have yet been pictured but has been celebrated in verse at least twice.
Donahan? Does that mean that the horse would go way down below the ocean, where he wants to be?
I guess that would explain why after nine days Alain let him run free, when the desert had turned to sea.
As I recall, I was the one who came up with the names for Alain and his horse. There was no intentional Easter egg in there.
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FROG!
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BOAT!
It's just a thought, and I might be wrong, but it would be nice to see some artwork of Alain doing what cavaliers do best.
I'm surprised no one's mentioned this yet. Pg. 16, Giants Revisited. Alain, on his horse, charging down a Fire Giant. It's pretty BA.
Just for Green Left Eye and everyone on this thread, Donahan, the much neglected iconic horse, will feature prominently in the upcoming Player Companion: Knights of the Inner Sea.
And if things work out the way I'm hoping, we'll get to see Alain like we've never seen him before.
Naked, with a pink bow tied around his, erm, lance? (And Amiri and Merisiel looking amused in the background.)
In order for PF to include awesome images of mounted combat without being disingenuous, I think that mounted combat ought to be a little more awesome. </unsolicited opinion>
As it stands, mounted combat is one of those phenomenal real-world things that is just so poorly reflected in the system (3.5 legacy acknowledged). Playing a mounted warrior in PF is something that is neither easy nor authentic.
I think it mostly owes to shoehorning the whole system into grid rules that don't really work for that domain. Horses aren't square; horses can't turn on a dime. We make that concession for flight and not for mounts? I've wondered what it would be like to use UC's vehicle rules for horses, actually.
The combat advantages of horsemanship go far beyond a speed increase. Lances are completely borked, IMO.
Sorry for the rant, this is all bubbling up because of a comparison to Burning Wheel, and that I actually had a mounter character drop out of my PF campaign because of these problems.
Naked, with a pink bow tied around his, erm, lance? (And Amiri and Merisiel looking amused in the background.)
*blink, blink* You're not actually that far off...
If Donahan gets the pony treatment I will ragesubcancel.
** spoiler omitted **
Uhhh... looks like we've got an art order to change. 0_0
ragesubcancel.
What's funny is I initially read this as "ragesubscribe," a concept I'm suddenly intrigued by. ;)
ragesubcancel.What's funny is I initially read this as "ragesubscribe," a concept I'm suddenly intrigued by. ;)
I think that's when we go: "Damn you for putting out such great products, people of Paizo!! Now I have to add another subscription to my list!"
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I keep reading this title as 'Alien Artwork Problem.'
And now I want to see an Iconic xenomorph Cavalier...