Background:
So...some people may recall that some time ago I made a post about spells that a Pathfinder Savant/Eldritch Knight could find useful for gaining via esoteric knowledge. One of the spells I'm quite sold on is shield other, which I am planning on having a Lyrakien familiar cast on me via a ring of spell storing (so half any damage I receive is directed to the familiar, who in turn sits in my handy haversack with a wand of CLW). However, another spell I am planning to have this PS/EK maintain on himself on a regular basis is ablative barrier, and that's where the headache starts.
The spells:
Ablative barrier causes the first 5 points of lethal damage from each attack to be converted into non-lethal damage.
Shield other causes half of any hit point damage dealt to the target to be by the caster instead.
The conundrum:
So...what happens when you have both cast on the same target? Better yet, what happens when both the caster and target of the shield other spell also have ablative barrier cast on both of them? Which spell applies first?
The possibilities:
Suppose the PS/EK takes a blow that deals 40 points of damage, which of the following happens (for convenience I will use decimal points so that the math is easier to follow):
1) PS/EK and familiar both take 15 LD and 5 NLD
2) PS/EK takes 5 NLD and 17.5 LD, familiar takes 5NLD and 12.5 NLD
3) Actually, I can't think of any other permutations, but if anyone else can think of a serious alternative, what would it be?
.. Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including those dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage.
The spell don't differentiate between lethal or non lethal damage. So you and your ally get 20 points of damage. From this 20 points you convert 5 to non lethal damage via AB.
Thats how i would rule it on my table.
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Invisible layers of solid force surround and protect the target, granting that target a +2 armor bonus to AC. Additionally, the first 5 points of lethal damage the target takes from each attack are converted into nonlethal damage. Against attacks that already deal nonlethal damage, the target gains DR 5/—. Once this spell has converted 5 points of damage to nonlethal damage per caster level (maximum 50 points), the spell is discharged.
This spell wards the subject and creates a mystic connection between you and the subject so that some of its wounds are transferred to you. The subject gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including those dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by the warded creature is taken by you. Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, temporary ability damage, level draining, and death effects, are not affected. If the subject suffers a reduction of hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with you because it is not hit point damage. When the spell ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between the subject and you, but damage already split is not reassigned to the subject.
If you and the subject of the spell move out of range of each other, the spell ends
I thought it would be helpful to link full text.
Invisible layers of solid force surround and protect the target, granting that target a +2 armor bonus to AC. Additionally, the first 5 points of lethal damage the target takes from each attack are converted into nonlethal damage. Against attacks that already deal nonlethal damage, the target gains DR 5/—. Once this spell has converted 5 points of damage to nonlethal damage per caster level (maximum 50 points), the spell is discharged.I thought it would be helpful to link full text.This spell wards the subject and creates a mystic connection between you and the subject so that some of its wounds are transferred to you. The subject gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including those dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by the warded creature is taken by you. Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, temporary ability damage, level draining, and death effects, are not affected. If the subject suffers a reduction of hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with you because it is not hit point damage. When the spell ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between the subject and you, but damage already split is not reassigned to the subject.
If you and the subject of the spell move out of range of each other, the spell ends
Thanks Vendle! =)
.. Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including those dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage.The spell don't differentiate between lethal or non lethal damage. So you and your ally get 20 points of damage. From this 20 points you convert 5 to non lethal damage via AB.
Thats how i would rule it on my table.
Hmm...is lethal damage "hit point damage" though? IIRC, NLD is not subtracted from your hp total, but kept as a separate number that, if it equals or exceeds your current hp, causes you to go unconcious.
Edit: From the prd:
Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
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I think nonlethal damage is meant to be hit point damage in mechanic, except in the way it is tracked. This means that the Shield Other spell would reassign NLD just as it does lethal damage.
It probably creates fewer problems this way, at any rate.
In the above example: master and familiar each have Ablative Barrier, and the familiar is shielding master with Shield Other. Master takes an attack that would deal 40.
My interpretation is that: master chooses Shield Other to come into effect first; he and his familiar take 15 LD and 5 NLD.
OR master chooses Ablative Barrier to come into effect first; he takes 18 (35/2) LD and 3 NLD and the familar takes 17 LD and ignores the 2 leftover NLD because the source damage is "already" NLD and it gets the advantage of its 5/- reduction.
I hope my math adds up.
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First, I'd rule that the 'damage transfer' effect of Shield Other bypasses the Ablative Barrier on the familiar... the layers of solid force Ablative Barrier creates are IMO meant to prevent damage by reducing the force of incoming attacks, and thus would do nothing for mystically transferred wounds.
This same logic would indicate that the Ablative Barrier on the master would be applied first... it reduces the incoming attack and the Shield Other only operates to transfer wounds after the attack.
Thus, the only question remaining would be whether non-lethal damage gets transferred or not. I'd probably rule that non-lethal damage doesn't transfer. Thus, the master would take 5 non-lethal and 18 lethal (assuming no 'half hit points' and the 'extra half' stays with the original target) while the familiar would take 17 lethal.
Good insight, Dunkerson! Now that I think about it, I agree with your interpretation.
Not sure about how shield other handles NLD though. Perhaps this should be another rules question to be asked!
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CBDunkerson is right as far as the RAW states that Ablative Barrier only affects attacks, not damage recieved from other sources (such as spell effects and environmental hazards.)
My old Core Rule Book pg 208 says "Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone."
This can also be found right about http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-The-Spell-s-Result
Seems pretty straight forward when considered for breaking spells like invisibility or sanctuary.
Why is not straight forward for ablative barrier?
This discussion also makes me curious about how spells granting temp hit points (like False Life) would interact with these two spells. Like for instance, does NLD remove temp hit points?