I can dance, but can I tumble? (Re: Versatile Dance)

[HappyDaze]

The Dervish Dancer Bard gets Versatile Dance at 2nd level. Here's the text:

Versatile Dance (Ex)

At 2nd level, a dervish dancer gains a bonus equal to half his level on Perform (dance) checks. He can use his bonus for his Perform (dance) skill in place of his bonus for Acrobatics.

This ability replaces versatile performance.

So, assuming that a 2nd level Dervish Dancer Bard with ranks in Perform (dance) has no actual ranks in Acrobatics, can he still use it as if he were Trained (since he has ranks in Perform and is using that bonus)?

[Deadmanwalking]

That's correct, yes.

[santherus]

...but is it though?

Acrobatics is an Untrained=Yes skill, so you don't need to be trained in it to use it, but using your bonus isn't the same as being trained in/having ranks in the skill. It's a subtlety that I'd not thought about before.

This means that although the Dervish Dancer Bard with versatile dance could use Perform (Dance) to make acrobatics checks, he would not benefit from things like the acrobatics special clauses:

>> If you have 3 or more ranks in Acrobatics, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2, and a +6 dodge bonus to AC when taking the total defense action instead of the usual +4.

..as he has no ranks in the skill. Interesting.

[edited for typo]

[ShadowcatX]

Santherus: That's not a use of acrobatics, that's a benefit of having it, and you're right, the bard doesn't get that.

[LazarX]

The Versatile Dance effectively gives you a working bonus when you're required to make Acrobatics checks. That's the entirety of what you get. You get no other benefits that you would have from actually having the skill. As you can also see this does not stack with an actual Acrobatics score either.

[graywulfe]

I would allow it because all the character would need to do to get it for certain is invest 1 skill point in acrobatics. Just my opinion

[LazarX]

HappyDaze wrote:

The Dervish Dancer Bard gets Versatile Dance at 2nd level. Here's the text:

Versatile Dance (Ex)

At 2nd level, a dervish dancer gains a bonus equal to half his level on Perform (dance) checks. He can use his bonus for his Perform (dance) skill in place of his bonus for Acrobatics.

This ability replaces versatile performance.

So, assuming that a 2nd level Dervish Dancer Bard with ranks in Perform (dance) has no actual ranks in Acrobatics, can he still use it as if he were Trained (since he has ranks in Perform and is using that bonus)?

What exactly do you mean by use? Beyond making acrobatics checks in situations like tumble and the like. If you're looking to qualify for a PrC that requires actual ranks in the skill, this won't do it.

[Some call me Tim]

graywulfe wrote:

I would allow it because all the character would need to do to get it for certain is invest 1 skill point in acrobatics. Just my opinion

If you need 3 ranks in a skill to get a benefit, you need to spend three skill points. Remember, ranks refer to your actual skill not your total bonus to using that skill. No skill points invested--no skill ranks.