Multiple AoO

[Maese RoD]

PJ A: Combat Reflex (1 + DEX AoO), Meele Weapon Reach 10´

Pj B: Meele Weapon Reach 5´

1- PJ B Pass through the reach of PJ A, generating a AoO for PJ A.
2- PJ A response with a Trip attempt without the Improved Trip feat.
3- Then, PJ A GENERATE a AoO (because she hasn´t the feat)for PJ B
4- PJ B use this AoO to do a Sunder attempt against the PJ A´s Weapon, without the Improved Sunder feat, generating a Second AoO, because it is a different action.
5- PJ A use his Combat Reflex against the attempt to sunder her weapon, and do a second Trip attempt.

Is this chain possible?

[Nigrescence]

No. A has reach and so the AoO from B passing through their threatened area happens at 10' from A, and since A is using a maneuver "untrained", they provoke an AoO from those able to make one. If B had a reach of 10' from a reach weapon or from size, they would be able to take advantage of this provoked AoO, but they cannot, since A provoked while B was 10' away. An AoO resolves before the provoking action, so B is not adjacent to A when the provoked AoO may occur. Therefore B does not get an AoO on A for the trip at 10' reach.

Additionally, if I recall correctly, a Sunder maneuver is a Standard action. Since B has 5' reach, B would provoke from A if A can make opportunity attacks within 5' reach. If A only has a reach weapon for a 10' reach (but not 5' reach) then A will not get an AoO against B when B provokes from attempting to Sunder A's weapon.

[Maese RoD]

Quote:

Additionally, if I recall correctly, a Sunder maneuver is a Standard action.

Sunder, Trip and Disarm are able to doin any time that you can do an attack (like an AoO)

[Bill Dunn]

Let's break it down.

A has reach, B does not.

1- B passes through the threatened area of A and provokes an AoO.
Situation done. B can't really do anything about it.

Second situation.
1- B tries to trip A but doesn't have Improved Trip and so may provoke an AoO. Does A get an AoO? Maybe and maybe not. If armed with just a reach weapon - no. If armed but has 10 ft reach naturally (like a large creature) - yes. If armed with a reach weapon but also armed with a secondary weapon with a 5 ft reach (like unarmed strike backed by improved unarmed strike feat) - yes.

2- Supposing A can make an AoO against B in this case (like a kick to the jimmies) and decides to stomp on the tripping weapon in an attempt to break it (sunder). He doesn't have the sunder feat and so provokes an AoO from B.

Yes. That chain could happen. Keep in mind that each successful AoO in the chain makes it harder for the provoking combat maneuver to succeed. So a polearm-using monk who tries to stomp (sunder) on the tripping weapon in B's hand, may have a harder time sundering if B manages to slash his leg in the process. If that AoO misses, A's sunder is unhindered and, if successful, should make the trip more difficult.

[Happler]

Maese RoD wrote:

Quote:

Additionally, if I recall correctly, a Sunder maneuver is a Standard action.

Sunder, Trip and Disarm are able to doin any time that you can do an attack (like an AoO)

I think that there is some question on that one.

The rules on these are:

Quote:

Disarm

You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack.

Good so far, you can replace any melee attack with a disarm.

Quote:

Trip

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.

Same wording as disarm, so still good.

Quote:

Sunder

You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.

New wording. You can sunder as part of an attack action. The other place that the "Attack action" wording is used is Vital strikes:

Quote:

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.

And there have been rulings by Devs (linkage) that the "attack action" referenced in vital strike is a standard action. This would make it so that you can replace the attack in a standard act with a sunder, but no where else.

I am not sure 100% that I agree with this, but there is some grey area here.

[Maese RoD]

Happler wrote:

I am not sure 100% that I agree with this, but there is some grey area here.

OK, if you don´t like sunder, replace sunder with disarm in the chain (it looks like a gray). I want an analysis of the chain an the possibility of Multiples AoO with Combat Reflex feat, to cut the action of 1 other creature, not especifically the Sunder attempt.

Bill Dunn wrote:

Let's break it down.

A has reach, B does not.

1- B passes through the threatened area of A and provokes an AoO.
Situation done. B can't really do anything about it.

Second situation.
1- B tries to trip A but doesn't have Improved Trip and so may provoke an AoO. Does A get an AoO? Maybe and maybe not. If armed with just a reach weapon - no. If armed but has 10 ft reach naturally (like a large creature) - yes. If armed with a reach weapon but also armed with a secondary weapon with a 5 ft reach (like unarmed strike backed by improved unarmed strike feat) - yes.

2- Supposing A can make an AoO against B in this case (like a kick to the jimmies) and decides to stomp on the tripping weapon in an attempt to break it (sunder). He doesn't have the sunder feat and so provokes an AoO from B.

Yes. That chain could happen. Keep in mind that each successful AoO in the chain makes it harder for the provoking combat maneuver to succeed. So a polearm-using monk who tries to stomp (sunder) on the tripping weapon in B's hand, may have a harder time sundering if B manages to slash his leg in the process. If that AoO misses, A's sunder is unhindered and, if successful, should make the trip more difficult.

I think that you don´t understand my question. Let explain it again:

1- ALL is happening in the SAME round.
2- The PJA attempt to Trip, an the PJB have an AoO.
3- The PJ B can´t hit the body of the PJ A, because PJ A is too far (she have a reach weapon).
4- In place to try to hit the body of the PJ A (because is to far), try to SUNDER or DISARM the Reach-Meele-Weapon, because the weapon indeed IS near (in her reach of 5´).
5- With the attempt to SUNDER or DISARM the PJ A (a 10´ of distance), the PJ B generate an AoO, because she hasn´t the improved feat.
6- IN THE SAME chain of action, IN THE SAME round, the PJ A, with Combat Reflex, use de NEW AoO of PJ B, to do another attempt to trip her rival.

Then, in 1 "action", you have the diagram:

AoO Trip AvsB ----> AoO Sunder BvsA ----> AoO New Trip AvsB.

The case is: Because PJ B doesn´t have reach, try to attack the weapon of PJ A, in place of the attack against PJ A.

In Example:

PJ A attacks the legs of B with a long spear, then B try to break the pole arm of A with her axe, but isn´t good enaough in that. In consecuense, PJ A takes a new opportunity to trip PJ B, hitting another point.

If PJ A fail the last attempt to trip, PJ B can do her attempt to sunder the pole arm with her axe. If she fail the attempt to sunder the long spear with the axe, then the PJ A has her opportunity to trip the PJ B. If PJ A fail the original attempt to trip PJ B, THEN (at last) PJ B pass throught the menace area of PJ A, without any arm.