Do Suli have Darkvision?

[HappyDaze]

The Sulis are introduced in Bestiary 3. They are another of the Outsider (native) races, and there is no mention of them having Darkvivion. Normally Outsiders all have Darkvision 60 ft., so is the Suli meant to be an exception, or should they have Darkvision 60 ft. (in addition to the Low-Light Vision mentioned in their Bestiary 3 entry)?

[blackbloodtroll]

They just have low-light vision.

[HappyDaze]

Oddly enough, the full-blooded janni doesn't have low-light vision at all; janni only have darkvision. This makes me wonder if it's a mistake and perhaps Suli should not have low-light vision but should have darkvision instead.

[Archaeik]

SRD Suli wrote:

Ecology

Most suli are born of the union between a half-jann and a human.

Half Janni

Suli are more like Aasimar/Tiefling than a half breed. So perhaps it is a mistake/misunderstanding on the part of the author.
(But does applying any of the "half-outsider" templates grant darkvision? they don't seem to explicitly say they do, even though the type changes to outsider(native).)

Really this should be nbd unless it affects society play...

[The Thread Necromancer]

This is odd, because the PFSRD still lists Darkvision under the racial build. Look at the racial build points in the right hand column.

So, should the Suli-Jann have Darkvision?

If not, should the "build" be updated with the Sulis selling back Darkvision? This changes the points from 16 to 14.

[Archaeik]

The Thread Necromancer wrote:

This is odd, because the PFSRD still lists Darkvision under the racial build. Look at the racial build points in the right hand column.

So, should the Suli-Jann have Darkvision?

If not, should the "build" be updated with the Sulis selling back Darkvision? This changes the points from 16 to 14.

No, the price point is correct, look again, the cost of darkvision is -

The issue here is the discrepancy between the Outsider type indicating that they all have darkvision, and the race builder ruleset indicating that it's bought separately from type.

In this instance, the ARG is the correct source to use, Suli do not have Darkvision despite being outsiders. (In most respects, the darkvision entry on the SRD should be removed; it may be there to acknowledge that it's not acquired though.)

EDIT: Okay, I'm wrong. The no cost comes from paying the 3rp for Outsider(native), but I can't remember if the Suli were first introduced in the ARG.

If they were originally in an AP, it's quite possible they did not have darkvision at the time, which would account for the SRD not listing it (as the RP tables were a later addition to that database).

[The Thread Necromancer]

Archaeik wrote:

The Thread Necromancer wrote:

This is odd, because the PFSRD still lists Darkvision under the racial build. Look at the racial build points in the right hand column.

So, should the Suli-Jann have Darkvision?

If not, should the "build" be updated with the Sulis selling back Darkvision? This changes the points from 16 to 14.

No, the price point is correct, look again, the cost of darkvision is -

The issue here is the discrepancy between the Outsider type indicating that they all have darkvision, and the race builder ruleset indicating that it's bought separately from type.

In this instance, the ARG is the correct source to use, Suli do not have Darkvision despite being outsiders. (In most respects, the darkvision entry on the SRD should be removed; it may be there to acknowledge that it's not acquired though.)

EDIT: Okay, I'm wrong. The no cost comes from paying the 3rp for Outsider(native), but I can't remember if the Suli were first introduced in the ARG.

If they were originally in an AP, it's quite possible they did not have darkvision at the time, which would account for the SRD not listing it (as the RP tables were a later addition to that database).

Suli (or Suli-Jann) do predate the Advanced Race Guide, as they come from Pathfinder Companion: Qadira, Gateway to the East.

This is why I suggested that their race cost be adjusted by "selling back" the Darkvision that is normally part of the Outsider type.

[Archaeik]

I don't know how the race is run for PFS, but RAW, they have Darkvision now since it's listed in the ARG.

If they are only intended to have Lowlight, an adjustment probably should be made, however you can't simply assume that 2rp out of the 3rp for Outsider(native) is dedicated to Darkvision as the overall package is not itemized. (it's not a bad estimation)

[The Thread Necromancer]

Archaeik wrote:

I don't know how the race is run for PFS, but RAW, they have Darkvision now since it's listed in the ARG.

If they are only intended to have Lowlight, an adjustment probably should be made, however you can't simply assume that 2rp out of the 3rp for Outsider(native) is dedicated to Darkvision as the overall package is not itemized. (it's not a bad estimation)

That is what the problem is.

Per page 202 of the Advanced Race Guide Suli do not list darkvision amoung their racial abilities (unlike other Native Outsider races such as Tieflings, page 169, or Ifrits, page 127).

[Archaeik]

Okay, found the PRD page
Suli

So now we have a RAW conflict.
Generally text trumps table, and we know they didn't get it previously.
But some could argue it's just an oversight since building them with the race point rules de facto grants darkvision at no additional cost, and there's not also text to dictate its purposeful removal.

I don't know what horse you have in this race, but there's no RAW to cover what you're asking...
Effectively, it seems they lose part of their Outsider benefits without a refund.

If you're seriously concerned about this, I'd find the appropriate ARG errors thread and post there, as I doubt this will ever be FAQ'd.

[The Thread Necromancer]

Archaeik wrote:

Okay, found the PRD page

Suli

So now we have a RAW conflict.
Generally text trumps table, and we know they didn't get it previously.
But some could argue it's just an oversight since building them with the race point rules de facto grants darkvision at no additional cost, and there's not also text to dictate its purposeful removal.

I don't know what horse you have in this race, but there's no RAW to cover what you're asking...
Effectively, it seems they lose part of their Outsider benefits without a refund.

If you're seriously concerned about this, I'd find the appropriate ARG errors thread and post there, as I doubt this will ever be FAQ'd.

Good thought!

Clearly, their not having Darkvision was the intent. It is just that the "Race Building System" has problem (which is surely news to no one).

[Gauss]

ARG Statblock (page 202) does not list them as having Darkvision.
ARG Racebuilder (page 245) does list them as having Darkvision (for free as part of paying for being a Native Outsider). It then lists them as paying for Low-light vision.
Bestiary 3 (page 258) lists Suli as only having Low-Light vision (in violation of the basic rules for Native Outsiders).

This appears to be a case where the ARG is trying to fit the Bestiary and they should have offered a points refund for the Suli or at least not charged for Low-Light Vision.

[thaX]

Looking at it, they do have Energy Resistance (5), which is all of them (Acid,Fire,Cold,Lightning), so that could be a reason for the downgrade in their vision.

Not a problem, really, there is always the Ioun Torch.

[The Thread Necromancer]

thaX wrote:

Looking at it, they do have Energy Resistance (5), which is all of them (Acid,Fire,Cold,Lightning), so that could be a reason for the downgrade in their vision.

Not a problem, really, there is always the Ioun Torch.

True.

The only "problem" is the failure to correctly spell out their "build" points in the ARG.

[Kaeroku]

Big necro, but! This is the only thread that pops up with this question on google, so...

Bestiary general text for Outsiders

"Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Darkvision 60 feet
<snip>"

Wouldn't Suli have to specifically say it *doesn't* (not just fail to include it) to negate the fact that all Outsiders get DV by default? Seems odd to interpret it otherwise, regardless of RAI.

[Rysky]

Suli are Native Outsiders, there's already exceptions built in.