I vaguely recall reading somewhere a set of rules (or guidelines) for adding character levels to monsters in a way that doesn't jack up their CR. I skimmed quickly through the GM tools sections of the Core Rulebook, but didn't notice this. Am I making this up? Is it from PFRPG or somewhere else?
Need to beef up some of the critturs I'm using in my game a bit.
All of the monster advancement rules are found here.
Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.
Emphasis mine.
Technically, monk and paladin are never key classes, along with the NPC classes. You can give any CR 2 or higher monster 1 level of either class along with the +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 bonuses to its statistics and the gear/treasure of a NPC with a level equal to its CR without altering its CR. That would be sure to give them a boost, though I would recommend against going as far as to making every intelligent monster a 1st level monk.
Fact. Fist-bump, HappyDaze; hag antipaladins here I come...
Edit: Succubus antipaladins...
Edit 2: Balor antipaladins...
Edit 3: Ancient wyrm red dragon antipaladins...
Edit 4: Ancient wyrm red dragon monks...
I vaguely recall reading somewhere a set of rules (or guidelines) for adding character levels to monsters in a way that doesn't jack up their CR. I skimmed quickly through the GM tools sections of the Core Rulebook, but didn't notice this. Am I making this up? Is it from PFRPG or somewhere else?
Need to beef up some of the critturs I'm using in my game a bit.
CR's are just guidelines anyway.
I have to ask why you need to "beef up some of the critturs" and are worried about the CR's. Is it "my players just beat up appropriate CR creatures?" My advice don't worry about it. Give the players fights they can handle regardless of CR.
Or is this a case of "I want to make the fights tougher with having to reward the players for beating a higher CR?" or "I want to claim it was a 'fair' fight when they die because it was CR whatever." I'm sorry but that is being a bit of a jerk. CR is supposed to a method for the DM to estimate appropriate fights and not as measure to min-max monsters to fight the PCs.
To expand on Some call me Tim's response above, you can make the easy fights fun and exciting without having to be toughened up to the point of lethality. Look up environmental effects (weather, terrain, and so forth). They can spice up encounters and add an illusion of difficulty without needing to risk killing PCs wantonly, and unless they are a significant hindrance to the party, shouldn't increase experience rewards.
I vaguely recall reading somewhere a set of rules (or guidelines) for adding character levels to monsters in a way that doesn't jack up their CR. I skimmed quickly through the GM tools sections of the Core Rulebook, but didn't notice this. Am I making this up? Is it from PFRPG or somewhere else?
Need to beef up some of the critturs I'm using in my game a bit.
CR's are just guidelines anyway.
I have to ask why you need to "beef up some of the critturs" and are worried about the CR's. Is it "my players just beat up appropriate CR creatures?" My advice don't worry about it. Give the players fights they can handle regardless of CR.
Or is this a case of "I want to make the fights tougher with having to reward the players for beating a higher CR?" or "I want to claim it was a 'fair' fight when they die because it was CR whatever." I'm sorry but that is being a bit of a jerk. CR is supposed to a method for the DM to estimate appropriate fights and not as measure to min-max monsters to fight the PCs.
Making a lot of assumptions here, and somewhat rudely, I might add.
The 'why' is irrelevant here, as I was merely requesting some info.
Regarding the other responses: thanks.
I think I may have been thinking of adding class levels to monsters with racial HD? Something like removing the racial levels and replacing them with class levels? I dunno. I'll look back through the Bestiary.
The 'why' is irrelevant here, as I was merely requesting some info.
I've decided that I like you.
Making a lot of assumptions here, and somewhat rudely, I might add.
The 'why' is irrelevant here, as I was merely requesting some info.
Sorry if it came if it came off as rude. I find that CR is one of the most misunderstood aspects of DMing the game. When I DM I worry a lot more about the challenge the monster presents to the PCs rather what the book says the CR it is. I was trying to keep you from spending too much time worrying about the details of calculating CR.
Making a lot of assumptions here, and somewhat rudely, I might add.The 'why' is irrelevant here, as I was merely requesting some info.Sorry if it came if it came off as rude. I find that CR is one of the most misunderstood aspects of DMing the game. When I DM I worry a lot more about the challenge the monster presents to the PCs rather what the book says the CR it is. I was trying to keep you from spending too much time worrying about the details of calculating CR.
Nice backpedaling. I appreciate THIS sentiment, but you forgot to go back and erase the part where you insinuated that this thread could just be about me being a jerk.
Moving on, the CR system is there to help construct encounters. Monster creation and modification rules are there to help fine-tune and vary encounters in several ways. I want to work with those systems, and was looking for certain information related to those. I appreciate that you like shooting from the hip with CR and encounter difficulty, but I don't.
To be fair, the boards don't let me edit my posts after a certain period of time, and I have a feeling that this probably applies to everyone (I don't think I'm special on this), so I don't think he could go back and erase his earlier statement if he had wanted to.
Nice backpedaling. I appreciate THIS sentiment, but you forgot to go back and erase the part where you insinuated that this thread could just be about me being a jerk.
Yeah. I was mostly just being sarcastic.
I think I may have been thinking of adding class levels to monsters with racial HD? Something like removing the racial levels and replacing them with class levels? I dunno. I'll look back through the Bestiary.
Unless the monster only has a single raical hit die, you just add the class levels on top of the racial HD. So something with 3d8 HD that takes two levels of fighter now has 5 hit dice (3d8+2d10).
I don't believe that 1 HD monsters with character classes exist anymore. For most things that advance by character class they will either have 0 racial HD or they will have 2+ racial HD.I think I may have been thinking of adding class levels to monsters with racial HD? Something like removing the racial levels and replacing them with class levels? I dunno. I'll look back through the Bestiary.Unless the monster only has a single raical hit die, you just add the class levels on top of the racial HD. So something with 3d8 HD that takes two levels of fighter now has 5 hit dice (3d8+2d10).
That certainly would make things simpler.
I'm now distinctly reading someone explaining that the problem with just adding character levels on top of racial HD is that what you end up with is a higher CR for only a few class levels, while that lowish class level often isn't enough to make adding the class worthwhile. That is, if you throw 4 ranger levels on top of, say, an ogre, it probably doesn't gain a whole lot of power, and likely doesn't justify its inflated CR.
I believe I read some suggestions on how to strip back to racial levels and then replace them with class levels in a way that keeps the monster true to its kind and theme, while being able to give it class levels equal to its HD, and without making it a lot more difficult. The most relevant goal being the ability to add a casting class with relevant spells without feeling like you made a super-tough monster, and without having to use creatures without racial HD to fill in the role.
I <i>think</i> I had made a satyr bard this way some time ago, but I don't recall where the guidelines are, which is why I asked here. Wondered if maybe it had been a thread on the boards...?