Maneuver master monk with greater grapple feat example of play

[gravylaugh]

I'm playing a maneuver master monk and i've got greater grapple. We're a bit torn on how this plays out. In this example scenario, would a full attack round look something like this?

Scenario: I'm standing adjacent to a kindly elderly woman. On my turn I....
1: Grapple (initial grapple),
2: Deal unarmed damage (from maintaining grapple as move action),
3: Grapple check, deal damage (second grapple allowed by greater grapple)
4: Grapple check, pin (from flurry of maneuvers)

That's how I've made sense how these rules work together. Any input would be helpful. If this is totally wrong please tell me!

Thanks everyone.

Greater Grapple : "You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple."

Flurry of maneuvers : "At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks. This ability replaces flurry of blows."

[Jiggy]

When Greater Grapple says you can make two Grapple checks, it's merely stating the natural consequence of being able to maintain as a move action. (Because you only get one standard action per turn, but can take two move actions.)

Your full-attack then looks like this:

1. Grapple ("freebie" granted from Flurry of Maneuvers)
2. Option to replace your normal attack with a grapple check, per the MM's special ability to do so. Success would mean an effect (such as damage or pin).
3. Repeat #2 for as many of your attacks (depending on BAB, etc) as you like.
4. Profit!

[truesidekick]

a tetori benefits more from grappling, duh, while a maneuver master benefits more from trip/disarm/sunder AND MOST OF ALL dirty trick.

once a grapple is established your full attack stops, wierd but grapple maneuver has very specific things you can do and a full attack is not one of them, unless you are grappled then you can full attack.

[Jiggy]

truesidekick wrote:

once a grapple is established your full attack stops

According to...?

[truesidekick]

because it states to do anything in a grapple requires a standard action, greater grapple only goes into effect after using a standard action to initiate the grapple (normally). even though a maneuver master can use the grapple at any time during the full attack, once the grapple is confirmed, at that point all other attacks stop unless you maintain the grapple as a move action, assuming you have Greater Grapple, then you get to auto damage the target as a move action.

[Jiggy]

truesidekick wrote:

because it states to do anything in a grapple requires a standard action, greater grapple only goes into effect after using a standard action to initiate the grapple (normally). even though a maneuver master can use the grapple at any time during the full attack, once the grapple is confirmed, at that point all other attacks stop unless you maintain the grapple as a move action, assuming you have Greater Grapple, then you get to auto damage the target as a move action.

That's not an answer. You restated that the full-attack stops, and some other things. You didn't explain anything. You just... said a bunch of stuff.

Lemme give you my understanding of how things work, and maybe you can point out (specifically) where you think I'm going wrong:

1. Making a grapple check normally requires a standard action.
2. Maneuver Master lets you make a grapple check as part of your full-attack routine, at a -2 penalty.
3. A character can make a full attack while grappled, as long as they don't need both arms to do it.

Therefore, the Maneuver Master can start his full-attack with his freebie Grapple check, and if successful, can continue with a (one-handed) full-attack routine the same as anyone else.

So where are you getting the idea that when a Maneuver Master starts a full-attack and is successful with his grapple check, he forfeits the rest of his attacks?

[Jiggy]

Jiggy wrote:

When Greater Grapple says you can make two Grapple checks, it's merely stating the natural consequence of being able to maintain as a move action. (Because you only get one standard action per turn, but can take two move actions.)

Your full-attack then looks like this:

1. Grapple ("freebie" granted from Flurry of Maneuvers)
2. Option to replace your normal attack with a grapple check, per the MM's special ability to do so. Success would mean an effect (such as damage or pin).
3. Repeat #2 for as many of your attacks (depending on BAB, etc) as you like.
4. Profit!

Just re-read the FoM ability, and #2 in my sequence is wrong. Only the extra maneuver gets to ignore the normal action requirement. You don't get to sub in additional grapple checks. My bad.

So the full-attack is more like this:

1. Make a full-attack (however many attacks that means).
2. At some point during that, throw in a grapple check at a -2. I suggest that you do it first, as success will mean they're easier to hit with your normal attack sequence.

[WRoy]

Jiggy wrote:

So the full-attack is more like this:

1. Make a full-attack (however many attacks that means).
2. At some point during that, throw in a grapple check at a -2. I suggest that you do it first, as success will mean they're easier to hit with your normal attack sequence.

Once you are grappling in subsequent rounds, however, you would not be able to use FoM... no full-attack actions while you are in control of a grapple.

Tetori is a much better choice for a grappling monk.

Also:
I'm not sure if I agree with #2. Once you have the grappled condition and are in control of a grapple, you normally can only take actions to maintain that grapple. Even Greater Grapple shows this in its example text... I'm pretty sure you can't use that feat to maintain as a move action then take a standard attack action on your opponent. RAW is murky on what happens to remaining attacks in your attack sequence if an ability like FoM lets you swap out an attack (or get a free maneuver) of a full-attack action for a grapple.

Even if it did work, it'd be of marginal benefit. You'd theoretically take your free grapple first, then you and your opponent would both gain the grappled condition. Your remaining attacks in the full-attack action would suffer a -2 from grappled, which would offset the -4 Dex your opponent suffers.

[truesidekick]

3 is wrong. you may not have a full attack action while grappeling UNLESS you are the person being grappled.

and your revised 2 would also not work.

it would have to be somthing like

level 1 monk (MM)

main attack+TWF then grapple last. because once you make that grapple check the remainder of your attacks end as a result of the rules for grppling.

here is the wording for grapple and what action you are allowed to take while grappling,
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Move
You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Damage
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

Pin
You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

Tie Up
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

the remaining attacks end once the grapple is established. but as i said before, you can choose when to grapple which would have to be at the end of the flurry of maneuvers.

[Jiggy]

"Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit."

That's the definition of the grappled condition. The only action restrictions are that you can't move from that space, casting requires concentration checks, no AoO's, and you can't do things that require two hands.

There is no other restriction.

@truesidekick: The rules you cite are for maintaining the grapple on subsequent rounds. I'm talking about the round that you first try to grapple them.

[Tels]

It's slightly murky waters in what your asking, but here is my understanding of the situation.

The Maneuver Master must take a full attack action, and during that full attack action, he may make a grapple check, if he chooses, at any point during the full attack action. This is kind of key, as the Maneuver Master has initiated a full attack action. Granted, he has grappled the character, but since it doesn't say otherwise, you get to finish the full attack, and that would be the end of your turn.

Next round, you can't gain a full attack because you must use a standard action (or move action if using Greater Grapple) to maintain the grapple, at which point you can choose one of the options, such as pin or inflict. With Greater Grapple, you can choose two options, so you could move, then pin the opponent, or even inflict and inflict.

[Jiggy]

Tels wrote:

It's slightly murky waters in what your asking, but here is my understanding of the situation.

The Maneuver Master must take a full attack action, and during that full attack action, he may make a grapple check, if he chooses, at any point during the full attack action. This is kind of key, as the Maneuver Master has initiated a full attack action. Granted, he has grappled the character, but since it doesn't say otherwise, you get to finish the full attack, and that would be the end of your turn.

Next round, you can't gain a full attack because you must use a standard action (or move action if using Greater Grapple) to maintain the grapple, at which point you can choose one of the options, such as pin or inflict. With Greater Grapple, you can choose two options, so you could move, then pin the opponent, or even inflict and inflict.

Good summary. Also note that getting two options with Greater Grapple is contingent on succeeding on two grapple checks (though only one is needed for the grapple to be maintained, even if the other fails).

[truesidekick]

Jiggy wrote:

"Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit."

That's the definition of the grappled condition. The only action restrictions are that you can't move from that space, casting requires concentration checks, no AoO's, and you can't do things that require two hands.

There is no other restriction.

@truesidekick: The rules you cite are for maintaining the grapple on subsequent rounds. I'm talking about the round that you first try to grapple them.

no the rules i posted were from the grapple combat maneuver discription from the CRB (actually d20pfsrd.com) all maneuver master would accomplish is allowing a "free" action maneuver instead of a standard. everything else function according to the rules of grapple.

and since this was the origional question:
Scenario: I'm standing adjacent to a kindly elderly woman. On my turn I....
1: Grapple (initial grapple),
2: Deal unarmed damage (from maintaining grapple as move action),
3: Grapple check, deal damage (second grapple allowed by greater grapple)
4: Grapple check, pin (from flurry of maneuvers)

the answer is
1 yes
2 yes
3 yes
4 no because once you have a grapple in effect you must obey the rules of the grapple CMB section of the CRB. which means no full round actions for the person who controls the grapple.

[hogarth]

gravylaugh wrote:

I'm playing a maneuver master monk and i've got greater grapple. We're a bit torn on how this plays out. In this example scenario, would a full attack round look something like this?

Scenario: I'm standing adjacent to a kindly elderly woman. On my turn I....
1: Grapple (initial grapple),
2: Deal unarmed damage (from maintaining grapple as move action),
3: Grapple check, deal damage (second grapple allowed by greater grapple)
4: Grapple check, pin (from flurry of maneuvers)

That's how I've made sense how these rules work together. Any input would be helpful. If this is totally wrong please tell me!

Here's a previous discussion on Greater Grapple:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz34hn?Greater-Grapple

My interpretation (WHICH IS PROBABLY IN A MINORITY) is that you can't use Greater Grapple on the first round of a grapple. Why not? Because Greater Grapple can only be used to maintain a grapple (as a move action), and in the first round there's no maintenance required (or possible).

[Jiggy]

truesidekick wrote:

no the rules i posted were from the grapple combat maneuver discription from the CRB (actually d20pfsrd.com)

Read them before you cite them:

"If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)."

That's the first part you quoted.

Read it. I was going to bold parts of it, but then I realized that I'd end up bolding the whole thing. That entire paragraph is talking about how thinks work starting the round AFTER you establish the grapple. You quoted absolutely nothing about the round in which you establish the grapple.

Quote:

all maneuver master would accomplish is allowing a "free" action maneuver instead of a standard. everything else function according to the rules of graple.

And the rules of grapple allow you to perform a full-attack while grappled:

"If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details."

It was extremely disingenuous of you to leave out the part(s) which contradict you when citing rules.

Now, on rounds after the first, the fact that maintaining a grapple requires a standard (or move, with Greater) action will prevent performing a full-attack. Normally this is the case when you first establish the grapple as well. However, Flurry of Maneuvers gives a single chance to escape that situation by grappling them without spending a standard or move action.

Quote:

and since this was the origional question:

Scenario: I'm standing adjacent to a kindly elderly woman. On my turn I....
1: Grapple (initial grapple),
2: Deal unarmed damage (from maintaining grapple as move action),
3: Grapple check, deal damage (second grapple allowed by greater grapple)
4: Grapple check, pin (from flurry of maneuvers)

the answer is
1 yes
2 yes
3 yes
4 no because once you have a grapple in effect you must obey the rules of the grapple CMB section of the CRB. which means no full round actions for the person who controls the grapple.

Actually, the answers depend on how you're going about it. If #1 is done with a standard action, then you have a move action left, allowing #2, but then you're done. And you were never doing a Flurry in the first place.

If instead you announce a Flurry, start with a grapple check and succeed (making #1 part of a full-round action), then #2-4 are all "no", and instead you continue with your full-attack.

[Tels]

I'll have to join you in the minority then hogarth, because that's how I interpret it as well. You don't maintain a grapple once you have succeeded grappling, you can only maintain on your following turn, at which point you can make two checks to move, pin, etc. as per Greater Grapple.

[WRoy]

Jiggy wrote:

That's the definition of the grappled condition. The only action restrictions are that you can't move from that space, casting requires concentration checks, no AoO's, and you can't do things that require two hands.

There is no other restriction.

So you think characters with Greater Grapple can take a move action to maintain a grapple then a standard action to: attack, cast a spell, concentrate on a spell, aid another, channel energy, go on total defense to pump your AC and CMD, etc?

Edit: n/m, the posts are hitting too fast and I missed the part you're just focusing on the first round of using FoM.

[hogarth]

WRoy wrote:

So you think characters with Greater Grapple can take a move action to maintain a grapple then a standard action to: attack, cast a spell, concentrate on a spell, aid another, channel energy, go on total defense to pump your AC and CMD, etc?

Absolutely...except casting a spell while grappling has problems of its own, as described in the rules for grappling and the description of the grappled condition.

[Jiggy]

Tels wrote:

I'll have to join you in the minority then hogarth, because that's how I interpret it as well. You don't maintain a grapple once you have succeeded grappling, you can only maintain on your following turn, at which point you can make two checks to move, pin, etc. as per Greater Grapple.

Hey, good point. Unless presented with evidence to the contrary, I'd have to agree. Thanks for pointing that out.

WRoy wrote:

So you think characters with Greater Grapple can take a move action to maintain a grapple then a standard action to: attack, cast a spell, concentrate on a spell, aid another, channel energy, go on total defense to pump your AC and CMD, etc?

Of course.

[WRoy]

Jiggy (and Hogarth paraphrased) wrote:

Of course.

I guess I've never seen anyone use Greater Grapple for anything other than, well, multiple grapple attempts. Just had one of those, "oh hey, look at that," moments. ;)

[Jiggy]

WRoy wrote:

I guess I've never seen...

Well, you're certainly not alone. Most of the playerbase's understanding of the rules is based on a playgroup accepting an interpretation/assumption about something and never looking at it again (for years).

See also:
• Iterative attacks with different weapons
• Main-hand shield attacks
• Bards casting spells while performing
• Taking 10 on every skill*
• Flurry of Blows as TWF being a "retcon"

Etc, etc, etc...

*Except UMD, of course.