Obviously, you'll want Wisdom to be your highest stat, but don't totally neglect your Charisma; healing done via channeling is healing you didn't need to drop another spell to cast. You can take the Extra Channeling feat to make sure you have enough. Dump Strength, though not so much that you can't wear armour. I'd value Dex over Con, since you'll need Dex for ranged touch attacks, and while hit points are necessary, you won't be trying to get within thumping range of baddies, anyway.
It sounds like you're looking for blast-type spells, and you're not going to find very many of those on the cleric spell list. Your domain spells, on the other hand, might give you plenty of those blasts, though they'll likely be coming from the Wizard or Druid spell list. You might want to consider the Theologian archetype, as it'll let you prepare domain spells in non-domain slots. Sadly, you only get one domain with this archetype, so make sure you really like the domain spells you'll get from the domain you choose, because you can't just replace the bad ones with spells from your other domain.
The Bad Touch Cleric, presented by Tark in his optimization guide, might satisfy you desire to call down divine wrath upon enemies, though with debuffs and the like rather than dealing with raw HP damage. You could always go the debuff route with your standard cleric spells, and dish out HP damage with your domain spells and abilities.
Based on the domains you mentioned, it sounds like you're considering a Gozreh cleric. I must admit, I have a real soft spot for Gozreh clerics; I'm playing one right now, and I love it, though it seems the people who write optimization guides things he's a poor choice. That being said, you'll probably get more blasting options with the Fire domain and its subdomains. Gozreh's domain spells do offer a lot in the way of battlefield control, though. That, IMO, is where she really shines. You will have more fog than you know what to do with, and the early Wind Wall that the Air domain offers is very handy if you've got archers trying to turn you into a pin cushion, and you can just hang out behind your wall and mess up their day using your spells.
Starting at 9th level means you get access to higher-level domain powers, which opens up your divine wrath options. If you're looking at the Air domain, check out the Cloud subdomain for a bit more damage-dealing. The Weather domain offers an ability that works like Call Lightning, though there's some unfortunate overlap in the spells offered by these domains. (They're also what I picked for my own Cleric.) If you take the Water domain, then the subdomain offered to Gozreh probably won't interest you, as you'll lose Cone of Cold. A shame Goreh doesn't get the Ice subdomain. If dishing out damage is your thing, though, these domains do offer you some options.
Finally, check out the Versatile Channeler feat. Generally, channeling positive energy (and dropping spells for cures) is the more optimal choice, but this feat will let you channel negative energy if you're a neutral cleric of a neutral deity (like Gozreh), albeit as if you were a cleric two levels lower. Still, channeling negative energy is about as "divine wrath" as you can get. Make sure you have Selective Channeling, though, so your allies don't get a face full of wrath, too.
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Hi. I'm playing a spell casting cleric of Pharasma right now. I've made some mistakes and discovered stuff you might find useful.
I don't find the Cleric optimization guides impressing. My advice is that you stay away from the Bad Touch Cleric, presented by Tark in his optimization guide. Especially the advice on feats are bad.
You are a caster cleric and that is very feat intense.
Improved Unarmed Strike?. Just no. Don't get this. You are not a melee cleric. Good if you want to threaten squares even while unarmed, but why would you. A better way might be to pick the Plant domain (you get Improved Unarmed strike for free more or less). Plant and Air is not bad, but Air and Water is probably better. Wasting a feat just so you can threaten squares? You are a caster and that is your focus. Besides Improved Unarmed Strike costs you a feat. Also, you will be using a lot of rods. Rod is a weapon so will be threaten squares anyway.
According to Tark : Dragon Style. "It allows you to essentially charge across the battle field and punch someone as if using a two handed weapon. You ignore a lot of the things that prevent charges and gain some beneficial save bonuses as well."
Why would you want to charge across the battle field?
Why would you want to punch someone?
And what does he mean by: " if using a two handed weapon"?
According to Tark : Domain Strike: Another must have if going the unarmed strike route this allows you to pound a touch power into someone with an unarmed strike. This is significant as it allows you to safely activate the touch power (they’re nearly all spell like abilities and thus provoke AoO’s)
First: You no longer target the foes touch AC but it's armored AC. This will make it really hard to hit your foe. Second: What touch powers do you have that are both really powerful and provoked AoO? This feat suck for you.
Spring attack? For what. This will cost you three feat (dodge, mobility and spring attack).
Touch spells? You can use reach spell or a rod of reach spell. Or just walk up to them if needed and touch them. As a caster you will focus on wisdom and thus have a lot of spells. Once such spell is Grace and that lets you move across the battle field with NO AoO.
You should focus on spells and magic items. Not, Melee.
Instead of Cleric guides you should check Treantmonk's Guides to the druid and Wizard. You can find links to hios Guides (and other guides) on GUIDE TO THE GUIDES, link below.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3shy?Guide-to-the-Guides#1
Yes, you are playing a cleric but Treantmonk has some good points on Battlefield Controller vs. blaster. His reviews on the spells are also helpful (the ones you get on your list). The wall spells are great so are the summon spells. Look for a mix of buff/protection spells, Battlefield Control spells, Summon spells and blast spells. As a cleric you can use incense of meditation so your blast spells will be even more powerful than arcane casters blast spells.
Yes, You can perhaps be a more powerful Blaster than a wizard. Not as versatile as a wizard, but you can do more damage.
Being neutral and having a neutral god has it's pros and cons. Pros are obviously that you can summon any creature on the list. That is a huge plus. Downside is you can't pick the feat Sacred Summons. I think Sacred Summons is overrated, but I might be wrong.
Archetypes: Stay away from them. You want to play a core cleric.
Channeling: Don't focus on it, not now anyway. You are starting at level 9. At that level channeling isn't worth it. At lower level (1-5) sure. At really high levels if you use a lot of summons with spell resistance, perhaps. Me, I picked extra channel and I'm already regretting it.
Might want to look at Variant Channeling, Disease [APG]:
Heal—Creatures heal a number of points of
ability damage to one ability score (your choice) equal to
your channel bonus. (Harm check out the APG)
This isn't bad. ability damage is otherwise hard do deal with in battle unless you use heal or mass heal.
Race: Human: Extra feat and extra skill point. You need both.
Edit:
Stats:
Str: 10.
Dex: 12 - 14
Con: 12 - 14. I think 12 is enough.
Int : 12. You are a caster and want skills like: spellcraft and knowledge skills and skills like diplomacy and perception, etc.
Wis 17 or 18 +2, so 19 or 20. I would probably start with 18.
Char: 10 or 12.
I started with Str 12. I regret it now. I would dump str since str drain can kill you, but 10 is enough. You need to carry stuff? Cast ant haul. Str also depends on if you plan to use heavy armor or mendium armor.
Dex or Con 14? I would start with dex 14 and con 12. As Fionnabhair said: I'd value Dex over Con, since you'll need Dex for ranged touch attacks, and while hit points are necessary, you won't be trying to get within thumping range of baddies, anyway.
Char depend on if you are going to use channel at higher levels to heal your summons and /or your alleys. If you are going to use Core Channel and not the Variant Disease Channeling, you want selective channel and quicken channel. That is two feat. It also depends on if you want to be the party face.
At higher levels get a Rod of Splendor. It grants you a +4
enhancement bonus to her Charisma score for as long as you holds or carries the item. It is a slot less item since you don't have t hold it. You only have to carry it.
Domains:
Depends on your DM/GM. Will he/she let you prepare lower domain spells in higher domain slots? Be it that you can apply meta magic feat to the domain spells or just prepare a domain spell two times. Let's say you want to prepare Chain lightning in the 6th spells slot and 7th spell slot.
If yes: Then I would pick Air and Plant.
If no, I would pick Air and water.
Air or Cloud Subdomain? Both are good. I value Air over Cloud. I think Air walk is better than solid fog. Cloud gives you Storm of vengeance, but Air gives you elemental swarm. Elemental swarm with augment Summoning is brutally mean.
Suggestions on traits:
Magical Lineage or Focused Mind
And one more of your choice. Perhaps one to give you a bonus to initiative.
Focused Mind is good if you plan to use summons. Especially if you pick augment Summoning.
Feats:
Reach spell
Spell penetration
Craft wondrous items. Yes, It not a bad feat, but depends on your gaming group. You can create stat boosting items, such as headbands and belts but Ioun Stones. You can also create incense of meditation. Very nice.
Quick draw. Yes. Quick draw. You will use a lot of rods and you can Quick draw rods.
If you plan on using summons: Spell focus conjuration + augment Summoning.
You can also pick toughness, improved initiative, spell focus evocation.
toughness or improved initiative? You can cast heal spells so I would pick improved initiative.
I'm not sure spell focus evocation is needed, but if you plan to cast a lot of evocations you might as well pick it. Me, I wouldn't. But if you don't plan to pick "Spell focus conjuration + augment Summoning." you might as well pick it, IF you plan to cast a lot of evocation spells.
Bouncing Spell and Dazing Spell are both good.
Warning: Elemental Spell is not that good. I rather use a rod of Elemental Metamagic. The rod is in fact far better since you can change all the damage instead of only half.
Some take heavy armor proficiency some don't. Since you will use rods you want to use a buckler. heavy armor proficiency may not be bad. My caster cleric didn't pick the feat. With elven chain or mithral medium armor she have move 30 in armor. Nice.
At higher levels
Greater spell penetration
Quicken spell
And perhaps : selective channel and quicken channel. If you pick Craft wondrous items you can make a slot less Phylactery of positive channeling.
Items: The usual and.....
Get a lot of rods.
Reach rod. - fantastic.
Extend Rod — Double spell duration. This is great. Be it Resist energy or Barkskin if you have the Plant domain or Magic Circle vs evil, etc., etc.
Enlarge Spell - god if you cast shield other of the Rogue/scout
Quicken rod - when you can afford it.
Gloves of storing: - when you can afford it.
You will use a buckler.
I will give you more info, when I know how the rest of the party looks like and what you DM/GM says about using higher domain slots for lower domain spells.
I also need to know:
- what domains you are going to pick
- if you plan on using summons
- if you plan on picking augment Summoning.
- if you plan to use channel in battle (usually A BAD idea unless you invest 2 feat in it).
- if you plan to be the party face
- if you plan to use medium or heavy armor.
- Are you going to use Variant Channeling? If yes, which one?
Kind regads Zark.
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I play a half elf cleric of sarenrae with the healing and fire domains as well as spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning. At level 10 I have created a minor wonderous item that casts summon monster V 3/day. I either summon fire elementals or celestial dire lions and at 5, the elementals are large. And if you are in a cramped space, you create 3 medium elementals with one cast. We are running Kingmaker and while fighting off an invasion, I summoned a bunch of celestial rhino's and had them charge in a line. Yes, I don't 'blast' so to speak, but my summons, with augment summoning, are freaking monsters. My DM allows me to blow all three charges in my Orb of Summoning to increase the size of one summon to the next step. A huge celestial dire lion? Holy crap.
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You might want to look at the Divine Strangest archetype. They lose channeling to gain a initiative bonus for them selfs and the group. At this level channel is not nearly as useful.
Warning Snide comments and suggestions to follow.
You have been warned
@Zark: I hope you udnerstand that the point with Domain strike is that through it you are trading eating an AoO for hitting armored AC. Often this is preferable to eating that AoO to the face. The main weaknesses with nearly all touch powers is that they are Sp rather than Su. So being able to drop them as a swift action after smacking someone in the face.
Ultimately the Bad Touch Cleric is not a pure casting cleric and was never intended to be. It's a way of using the cleric that takes advantage of the rather good touch powers (chaos, darkness, etc.) while still making use of things like Bestow Curse and Inflict spells which all require you to be touching someone. The feats you mentioned as bad are only bad if you are trying to be a casting cleric that hangs out on the back line and never takes advantage of his touch powers or debuffing auras. Spring attack for example lets you flit in and drop that held debuff or touch power and flit out with a retaliatory strike, dodge bumps your ac and mobility makes it easier to escape. Then you ahve dragon style which lets you ignore hindering terrain or even your own allies to drop said debuffs. You can get reach spell (and I even suggested it) but you can't use it on your touch powers and it's not always a practical choice.
Ultimately I don't think you got the whole point of the bad touch cleric.
Why would you want to charge across the battle field?
To deliver touch spells without provoking AoO's.
Why would you want to punch someone?
To use Domain Strike hopefully.
And what does he mean by: " if using a two handed weapon"?
Because that attack is at 1.5 strength. More damage is not bad but the real reason for taking the feat is that you can run across hindering terrain and through allies while still getting that +2 to attack with the addition of a bit more damage.
So ultimately point of the bad touch cleric is the TOUCHING part. A lot of the better offensive spells (bestow curse, blindness/deafness, etc.) require you to touch your target. So you're left with the option of casting defensively, possibly failing, and getting hit in the face or finding ways around that and avoid retaliatory strikes entirely.
All this being said it doesn't sound like the OP wants to be playing a bad touch cleric at all. So let's look at that.
If you want to call down divine wrath the best way to do that is through summoning whether you are popping out spiritual weapons, summoning monsters, or planar allies the best spells at a clerics disposal for that are the ones that continue to deal damage long after they've been cast. To this end it's worth looking into the divine strategist (which I hate but do see the appeal) or at Alternate channeling which will allow you to toss out buffs. Personally at your level I'd seriously consider an Evangelist. You'kll be able to use inspire courage as a swift action use Quicken channeling (somethign alternate) as a move and still have a standard action to cast a spell. The only real loss is in your spontaneous healing, but by this point you are looking at using mostly wands anyway.
I would honestly admit that you should really be looking at the support cleric rather than a bad touch cleric unless that's specifically what you want to play. Even I'll admit the bad touch cleric is rather niche unless that kind of style appeals to you.
And ultimately none of the advice anyone gave here is bad. I just think Zark missed the point about the bad touch cleric.
I keep hearing about how Clerics are under-powered, weak etc. I have yet to play a game where the Cleric is not one of the most powerful in the group...and yes I play with great/veteran/experienced role-players
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I keep hearing about how Clerics are under-powered, weak etc. I have yet to play a game where the Cleric is not one of the most powerful in the group...and yes I play with great/veteran/experienced role-players
The cleric is a good class. There are many factors for the over all power level of a cleric. Clerics are under powered in there spells compared to arcane casters. Full arcane casters are underpowered in there ability to fight with a weapon using self buffs. There are many areas where a cleric can do very well. There are Meany areas where they will be out preformed.
Compared to what?And in what role?
And at what level?
The cleric is a good class. There are many factors for the over all power level of a cleric. Clerics are under powered in there spells compared to arcane casters. Full arcane casters are underpowered in there ability to fight with a weapon using self buffs. There are many areas where a cleric can do very well. There are Meany areas where they will be out preformed.
Compared to what?
And in what role?
And at what level?
I'm speaking of general utility.
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Over all the class has taken two big hits. The first big hit was the oracle. With there focus it makes them much better at the same type of job as a cleric. With the addition of mystery revelations oracles can do a much better focused job then the cleric. The cleric is still a better generalist. The real down side is there are not enough good divine spells that you can say a oracle will not get all the best spells for there focus. The second hit comes from the witch, healing patron, and hedge witch archetype. This combination can replace a casting cleric. They end up with such a better spell list then the casting cleric. So it's not that clerics are not good. It's there a generalist with a very limited spell list. So there utility is limited by there spell list. The same as a oracle. With the oracle mystery's that are far better then domain powers. In that they are focused on one thing rather then many.
I just think Zark missed the point about the bad touch cleric
Perhaps, but it's not a valid option for Koshea since he wants a caster cleric.
@Deyvantius and calagnar. Don't threadjack Koshea's thread.
Take the fight somewhere else.
I just think Zark missed the point about the bad touch clericPerhaps, but it's not a valid option for Koshea since he wants a caster cleric.
On that I completely agree.
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At higher level play feet's like. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration. Are where you what you get the most out of. The problem is divine casters don't really have a set focus of spells that are good at all levels. So taken spell focus is kind of moot. Picking up some metamagic feet's can go along way to helping out a divine caster.
Metamagic feet's that you can get allot of use out of.
Persistent Spell : for a two level ingress you force a second save vs spell. This is the most important one for a cleric as it will get allot of use.
Rime Spell : This is a good metamagic feet to have. The only real down side is there are very few spells on the cleric list that deal cold damage. The spells that this metamagic feet can affect tho are very good when combined with it.
Heighten Spell : For a casting cleric this is almost a must have. As there are very few ways for a cleric to ingress there spell DC saves. The down side is Persistent spell is better and cheaper way to do the same thing.
Bouncing Spell : Is not a bad idea. Combined with Persistent you can almost garintee one target is going to be affected by the spell you cast. The down side is it worth it. As it affects a target other then the one you wanted.
Over all the best options for a class are.
Cleric, Cleric archetype Divine Stagiest, Cleric archetype Evangelist.
I personally favor the divine stagiest for a caster. The main reason for this. As a caster the higher in the initiative order you can get the greater the chances of you controlling the flow of battle. TarkXT was correct in that the Evangelist can do a very good or better job then the divine stagiest depending on party make up.
Spells you need to take a close look at as a casting cleric. Are the few spells that are at the top tier of spell power for a cleric.
1st : Command, Murderous Command
2nd : Grace, Hold Person, Sound Burst, Spear of Purity, Spiritual Weapon
3rd : Blindness-Deafness, Chain of Perdition,
4th : Blessing of Fervor, Dismissal, Spiritual Ally,
5th : Break Enchantment, Command, Greater, Holy Ice, Wall of Stone
Zark has given some good advice.
I also recommend considering the evangelist archetype. Though it's not quite casting, it gives you something to do in addition to it. Also, the spontaneous casting options are more interesting there.
I would also recommend looking at preferred spell feats to get some spontaneous casting key spells, i.e. those you will always cast. Could include cure light wounds, blessing of fervor, breath of life, magic circle against evil... Combined with reach spell (it's spontaneous casting, so you can apply it on the fly as with your other spontaneous spells) it gives you a lot of versatility.
Also, don't ignore pearls of power. If you care and can spare the feat, consider crafting wands to spam spells in a fight. If you craft it yourself, it's your DC, not the lowest possible.
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Looking at it again, yeah, the Bad Touch Cleric probably won't work, here. I thought the emphasis was more on debuffing than touching. In my defense, it was late when I wrote my post. :P
Thinking on it more, I don't think there really is a build suggestion in the Cleirc optimization guides I read that really puts the focus on casting, which is weird since Cleric is a full casting class.
The stats Zark suggested look good, though I personally would increase Charisma a bit more. Yeah, yeah, healing's not important, yadda yadda, what kind of campaigns are you guys playing in where you can afford to sacrifice on in-combat healing? Personally, I find that healing is important and sometimes quite necessary to ensure the survival of yourself and your party members. As the cleric, you'll be expected to fill this role, and if your party is the sort that needs healing, Charisma will be more important. More Charisma means more channels, and more channels means less dropping spells for cures. Dropping spells means you're dishing out less wrath, and who wants that? Plus, channeling lets you heal from a distance, which is good for a build that doesn't want to get into melee.
You can afford to dump Strength a little more, if need be. (My Cleric is rocking an 8 Strength, but my group rolls stats.) You don't need heavy armour, since you won't be entering the fight unless you absolutely have to.
Regarding the Cloud subdomin, Air Walk (one of the spells replaced) is on the Cleric spell list already, and the Air domain doesn't give it to you early. Solid Fog, on the other hand, is not on the Cleric spell list. Losing Elemental Swarm might suck, but I think a caster Cleric will get more use out of a domain power available at level 8 than a ninth level spell. Unless your DM likes to zap people with lightning, I don't think the electricity resistance offered by the Air domain is all that useful. Plus, a no-save area-of-effect deafness is gonna come in handy.
Someone mentioned the Guided Hand feat but neither it nor its prerequisite (Channel Smite) are going to be very useful to a caster Cleric, as they're both weapon-attacking feats. I picked Channel Smite for my own Cleric, and I've never used it. I took that feat so I could grab Guided Hand, but I haven't, because I never use my weapon.
I strongly recommend taking Heighten Spell and Preferred Spell, especially if your DM lets you pick a domain spell as a preferred spell, and drop a non-domain spell slot to cast said domain spell. Pick your favourite wrath spell with this feat, and go to town. Plus, you can apply metamagic on the fly, which is always handy.
I also highly recommend the Birthmark trait. A Cleric never wants to be without their holy symbol. Personally, my Cleric is Shoanti, and her holy symbol is tattooed to her face. The Reactionary trait offers an imitative bonus, so it's worth considering, too.
Your spell selection is going to be a bit limited, I'm afraid. A Cleirc's spell list focuses on support for the most part, not divine wrath. This is why I think domain choice is so important. I'm looking over the spell list on the PF SRD, though, and I'll try to give some suggestions:
1) Burning Disarm (target drops their weapon or takes damage, useful on an enemy's weapon or holy symbol)
Murderous Command (make an enemy attack their ally; indirect divine wrath)
Obscuring Mist (good battlefield control spell)
Ray of Sickening (self-explanatory)
2) Admonishing Ray (non-lethal damage)
Arrow of Law (lawful spell, gives damage to anyone not lawful, but best against chaotic and chaotic outsiders)
Darkness (another battlefield control option)
Deadeye's Arrow (technically this makes a weapon, but it's one you can throw, and it deals electricity damage; spell is special to Erastil, though I don't know if Clerics of other deities are forbidden from casting it)
Disfiguring Touch (similar to Bestow Curse)
Dread Bolt (evil spell, gives damage to anyone not good, but best against good and good outsiders)
Hold Person ("hold still so I can smite you!")
Owl's Wisdom (bonus to Wisdom, though don't bother with this spell if you have a Wisdom headband +4 or greater)
Shard of Chaos (chaotic spell, gives damage to anyone not chaotic, but best against lawful and lawful outsiders)
Sound Burst (minimal damage, but they're stunned if they fail their save, and not much is immune to sonic damage)
Spear of Purity (the alignment spell you'll likely get the most use out of; good spell, gives damage to anyone not good, but best against evil and evil outsiders)
Spiritual Weapon (force weapon attacks target you designate)
3) Bestow Curse (not damage, but a powerful debuff if you don't mind touching; mess up an enemy caster's day by using this spell to give them a spellblight)
Blindness/Deafness (another powerful debuff)
Chain of Perdition (force chain can be used to preform some combat maneuvers using your Wisdom mod, while you stand back)
Contagion (evil; touched creature gains disease of your choice)
Deeper Darkness (more battlefield control)
Fractions of Heal and Harm (swift action; follow it up with a damage spell, and trade some of that damage to heal yourself)
Searing Light (damage for anybody, more verses undead)
4) Aura of Doom (anyone who gets too close must save or be shaken)
Blessing of Fervor (awesome buff; for you, cast a 2nd level or lower spell as if it were an enlarged, extended, silent, or still; allies get other benefits)
Fleshworm Infestation (evil; touch does HP and Dex damage, staggers targets who fail their save)
Poison (Con damage is even better than HP damage)
Spit Venom (similar to Poison, only less Con damage, but target is blinded for 1 round)
5) Boneshatter (how is this not evil? Bones shatter and splinter, dealing damage, target is exhausted on failed save)
Contagion, Greater (like Contagion, but harder to remove, and close range instead of touch)
Curse, Major (like Bestow Curse, but harder to remove, and close range instead of touch; also lets you give a target a major spellblight)
Flame Strike (deals HP damage)
Holy Ice (good-aligned; javelins to deal damage, or a wall for some battlefield control)
Slay Living (lots of damage on a failed save)
Snake Staff (be like Moses and summon snakes to do your bidding, if there's wood around)
Unholy Ice (evil version of Holy Ice)
Wall of Stone (more battlefield control, yay!)
And that should take you up to level 9. I figure the Summon Monster spells can go without saying.
You know what, I that that back, there are a good number of offensive spells for Clerics; not as many as support spells, and some of them aren't great, but they're there. In fact, I think I need to go over the spells I prepare for my own Cleric, as I'm missing some goodies.
The stats Zark suggested look good, though I personally would increase Charisma a bit more. Yeah, yeah, healing's not important, yadda yadda, what kind of campaigns are you guys playing in where you can afford to sacrifice on in-combat healing? Personally, I find that healing is important and sometimes quite necessary to ensure the survival of yourself and your party members.
100% agreement. Another "truth" I see thrown around. "Healing in combat is not important." If you are playing canned adventures where every battle is set up to be "level appropriate" then maybe so, but I'm used to playing against a veteran DM and thinking "healing can be done after battle" will get you TPKed.
Channel healing MIGHT be over-rated but you will need Cures. Also, a cleric can summon monsters just like a wizard so if you want to focus on casting, I suggest you go the summoning route. Flame Strike and all that other stuff is just icing on the cake....Max WIS and then thrown some DEx and Con for HPs, saves, touch spells, and AC. anything else is just gravy
Thinking on it more, I don't think there really is a build suggestion in the Cleirc optimization guides I read that really puts the focus on casting, which is weird since Cleric is a full casting class.
Because the cleric spell list kind of sucks in terms of battlefield control and offensive spells. This si why most people focus on summoners. And summoning spells work great on a support chassis particularly when talking about mass buffs.
The stats Zark suggested look good, though I personally would increase Charisma a bit more. Yeah, yeah, healing's not important, yadda yadda, what kind of campaigns are you guys playing in where you can afford to sacrifice on in-combat healing? Personally, I find that healing is important and sometimes quite necessary to ensure the survival of yourself and your party members.
100% agreement. Another "truth" I see thrown around. "Healing in combat is not important." If you are playing canned adventures where every battle is set up to be "level appropriate" then maybe so, but I'm used to playing against a veteran DM and thinking "healing can be done after battle" will get you TPKed.
Channel healing MIGHT be over-rated but you will need Cures. Also, a cleric can summon monsters just like a wizard so if you want to focus on casting, I suggest you go the summoning route. Flame Strike and all that other stuff is just icing on the cake....Max WIS and then thrown some DEx and Con for HPs, saves, touch spells, and AC. anything else is just gravy
I never said Healing in combat is not important. I said Channeling isn't woth it in cobat unless you invest a lot into it.
Magic item to boost the healing.My currect cleric has Healing as one of her domains.
Selectice channel
Quicken channel
Chrisma and/or charisma boosting items.
We only pick one trait so I was thinking of Focused Casting or due to what was mentioned above perhaps birthmark to save a hand for holding a rod.
Good Catch. I actually think there are other way to deal with divine focus. And not that many spells really need divine focus, but good catch.
Is it worth it to take reach spell for spontaneous cures even if they are a full round action or would a lesser rod of reach be more than sufficient?
Edit:
Full round action to cast spontaneous cure spells with metamagic? I never heard of that reading. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it sounds harsh.For healing you don't really need the feat reach spell. You can just as well use the spells: Sacred Bond or Shield Other. Sacred Bond even works with heal and breath of life. Or you can use a rod of reach spell and prepare some cure spells. Breath of life is one such spell. Must be prepared at all time.
If the party want healing, make the summoner and wizard cast "Ablative Barrier" on the party. Makes the healing so much easier. Ablative Barrier on the party + channeling is actually not bad.
Preferred spell on a domain spell, that's brilliant! Are there any FAQ's as to if you can only sacrifice Domain slots for such a thing?
Ask your DM/GM. And again does your gm have the same ruling on Preferred spell as on spontaneous cure spells, then it might not be worth it.
If the ruling is a standard action then breath of life isn't a bad choice.
If I can get away without the human need of the extra feat I was hoping to go halfling and dump Str taking a high dex and a mithril breastplate and try to create the toughest nut to crack I could defensively in base saves and AC while using my spells for offensive actions unless buffing or healing was needed. This might still fit the...
I wouldn't dump str more than 8.
Human vs Hafling
Human as a caster is better since wisdom will be your man stat.
You get bonus feat : caster cleric costs a lot of feats.
Skill points: You got a wizard, but you still want some skills.
Move: Humans 30 ft, Hafling 20ft. As a cleric you probably want to be able to move. Especially if you are a caster.
We only pick one trait so I was thinking of Focused Casting or due to what was mentioned above perhaps birthmark to save a hand for holding a rod.Good Catch. I actually think there are other way to deal with divine focus. And not that many spells really need divine focus, but good catch.
Is it worth it to take reach spell for spontaneous cures even if they are a full round action or would a lesser rod of reach be more than sufficient?Edit:
Full round action to cast spontaneous cure spells with metamagic? I never heard of that reading. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it sounds harsh.For healing you don't really need the feat reach spell. You can just as well use the spells: Sacred Bond or Shield Other. Sacred Bond even works with heal and breath of life. Or you can use a rod of reach spell and prepare some cure spells. Breath of life is one such spell. Must be prepared at all time.
If the party want healing, make the summoner and wizard cast "Ablative Barrier" on the party. Makes the healing so much easier. Ablative Barrier on the party + channeling is actually not bad.
Preferred spell on a domain spell, that's brilliant! Are there any FAQ's as to if you can only sacrifice Domain slots for such a thing?Ask your DM/GM. And again does your gm have the same ruling on Preferred spell as on spontaneous cure spells, then it might not be worth it.
If the ruling is a standard action then breath of life isn't a bad choice.
If I can get away without the human need of the extra feat I was hoping to go halfling and dump Str taking a high dex and a mithril breastplate and try to create the toughest nut to crack I could defensively in base saves and AC while using my spells for offensive actions unless buffing or healing was needed. This might still fit the...I wouldn't dump str more than 8.
Human vs Hafling
Human as a caster is better since wisdom will be your man stat.
You get...
Yes, spontaneus casting means all rules for spontaneous casting apply, so full round is needed when you use metamagic.
And preferred spell works with domain spells and non domain slots, restrictions only apply to preparation :-)
Yes, spontaneus casting means all rules for spontaneous casting apply, so full round is needed when you use metamagic.
And preferred spell works with domain spells and non domain slots, restrictions only apply to preparation :-)
Sigh, you are correct. Now I need to rethink some of my plans.
You could actually use quicken rod and reach spell if you need to spontaneous cast cure spells.
Or prepare some cure spells or /and use Sacred Bond.
Sacred Bond is just great.
Shield Other is also an option. I actually think cure in battle is usually, but not always, a bad idea.
Exceptions are obviously heal, mass heal or if you can quick cast them or when you play at lower levels.
Battle field control and casting buffs/protective spells before battle is a better option. That said I'm actually play a caster Cleric with the healing domain (Restoration Subdomain) that has twho channeling feats and will also pick Quicken channel.
Koshea, it looks like you are debating between an evangelist or a buffing/healer build. (Evangelist's lose spontaneous curing spells).
For spontaneous cures, buffing and debuffing reach spell will really help. A rod of reach will still be useful as it will allow you to use reach on your highest level spells without increasing the slot level.
I would also suggest Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Rod IF your DM allows time for crafting. While you can craft during adventuring at higher levels that becomes much too slow to be that useful.
My concept:
20 point buy: Str8, Dex12, Con14, Int10, Wis16+2human+2level, Cha14
Lvl 9 Human, cleric
Feats: Selective Channel, Reach spell, Scribe Scroll, Craft Wondrous Item? (dependant upon DM answer), Quick Channel, Craft Rod (dependant upon DM answer)
I would replace the channel feats and move more of the charisma to other stats if you arent interested in channel energy healing your allies. However, with more PCs channel becomes more effective.
Equipment: 46,000. * indicates you made it and the price is half of retail.
+1 Weapon (2,300gp+weapon price)
+1 Mithril Breastplate (5,300gp)
+1 Darkwood Heavy Shield (1,257gp)
*Rod of Reach Metmagic (*5,500gp)
*Rod of Persistent Metamagic (*5,500gp)
*Headband of Wisdom +4 (*8,000gp)
*Belt of Physical Might (Dex/Con) +2 (*5,000gp)
*Cloak of Resistance +3 (*4500gp)
*Pearl of Power I (*500gp)
8143gp remaining to buy misc items/scrolls (esp pearls of power).
Rod of Reach Metamagic is primarily there to allow you to cast your highest level spells at a range greater than normal.
Rod of Persistant metamagic is for debuffing spells like Bestow Curse.
This is a somewhat balanced build that allows you to buff, heal, and do some debuffing (via persistent spell rod).
Domains and subdomains are entirely flavor dependant but IF you are going for healer/buffer I would suggest the heal domain with no subdomains since you get the most bang for your buck with that. While some might consider this a waste I believe it allows you to use LESS healing and thus do more buffing and debuffing spells.
While the lack of strength might seem critical with one spell per day you can bypass that issue. Ant Haul will allow you to carry all your armor and equipment without problem even at strength 8.
Regarding the casting time of spontaneous cures: Page 113 of the core rulebook states that spontaneous spells (including that cast by clerics) become full full-round actions when combined with metamagic (although rods bypass this). Note: this is not the same thing as a full-round spell which goes off the next round.
I hope this has helped. - Gauss
Edit: Craft Rod and the equipment resulting from this.
Regarding Sacred Bond: I agree this spell rocks but for a group the size that Koshea is talking about it may not be feasible. It appears there is no shortage of tanks in Koshea's group and thus there would be a hard time maintaining sacred bonds to each of them without multiple pearls of power (which can be done but the duration is only 10min/lvl and would burn through alot of spellpower even with pearls). - Gauss
Also, don't ignore pearls of power. If you care and can spare the feat, consider crafting wands to spam spells in a fight. If you craft it yourself, it's your DC, not the lowest possible.
Scrolls, Wands, and Potions use the minimum ability score. A level 4 wand has a save DC of 16 regardless of the maker's stats. However, you could in theory boost it by boosting the spell level but not past the magic item's level limit. Example: raising a level 3 spell to a level 4 spell (say by heighten spell) would raise the DC from 14 to 16.
Caster level however can be increased to whatever your maximum is. But that raises the price accordingly.
- Gauss
Edit:
Koshea, it looks like you are debating between an evangelist or a buffing/healer build. (Evangelist's lose spontaneous curing spells).
No, he wants a caster cleric and two domains. As a caster cleric the core cleric is the best choice.
It was Sangalor that suggested the Evangelist. It's not a bad archetype depending on what you want, but it don't match what Koshea seems do want. It also makes channel energy useless.
For spontaneous cures, buffing and debuffing reach spell will really help. A rod of reach will still be useful as it will allow you to use reach on your highest level spells without increasing the slot level.
As pointed out by other posters spontaneous cures and metamagic - including Reach spell - equals a full round action.
Regarding the casting time of spontaneous cures: Page 113 of the core rulebook states that spontaneous spells (including that cast by clerics) become full full-round actions when combined with metamagic (although rods bypass this).
No, Rods does not bypass this.
Note: this is not the same thing as a full-round spell which goes off the next round.
Yes it is. Why wouldn't it?
Regarding Sacred Bond: I agree this spell rocks but for a group the size that Koshea is talking about it may not be feasible. It appears there is no shortage of tanks in Koshea's group and thus there would be a hard time maintaining sacred bonds to each of them without multiple pearls of power (which can be done but the duration is only 10min/lvl and would burn through alot of spellpower even with pearls). - Gauss
First, you can only have one Sacred Bond active at any time.
Second, healing as a concept is impossible in a group as large as Koshea's. Especially if the plan is to heal all members.Third, the tanks are not the problem. The Paladin and Cleric can manage their own healing so cast Sacred Bond on the fighter.
The summoner and archer got some healing options as well and won't probably enter melee. summoner has the responsibility to buff and heal his pet. That is not the clerics responsibility.
So we, got the fighter and Wizard. As a caster you will likely stay close to the other caster and wizards usually don't take that much damage. If the wizard does the cleric is close enough to touch him. Or the cleric could caster Shield of faith on the Wizard. Another option would be to tell the wizard to stay close to the cleric and cast Shield of faith on the Summoner.
Point is, if the party expects to be healed all the time by the cleric they are doing something seriously wrong. Healing in battle should always be plan B. Fem people can rely on one person being there for them at all time if something goes bad.
Also, don't ignore pearls of power. If you care and can spare the feat, consider crafting wands to spam spells in a fight. If you craft it yourself, it's your DC, not the lowest possible.Scrolls, Wands, and Potions use the minimum ability score. A level 4 wand has a save DC of 16 regardless of the maker's stats. However, you could in theory boost it by boosting the spell level but not past the magic item's level limit. Example: raising a level 3 spell to a level 4 spell (say by heighten spell) would raise the DC from 14 to 16.
Caster level however can be increased to whatever your maximum is. But that raises the price accordingly.
- Gauss
+1
yes, Sangalor is wrong, and I agree, it's too pricy.Only time I raise caster level/buy at higher caster level is haste, Shiled and Bless weapon.
Scrolls of Haste CL 6, I want it to affect all members of the group (including pets).
Wand of Shield at CL 2 and we usually buy wands with bless weapon at CL 2. Reasons are we want to increase the duration of the buff so we have time to call all buffs and sometimes you got to chase down enemies.
Even protective spells like resist energy and barkskin, that would provide an increased protection, are seldom bought at a higher casterlevel.
Also, don't ignore pearls of power. If you care and can spare the feat, consider crafting wands to spam spells in a fight. If you craft it yourself, it's your DC, not the lowest possible.Scrolls, Wands, and Potions use the minimum ability score. A level 4 wand has a save DC of 16 regardless of the maker's stats. However, you could in theory boost it by boosting the spell level but not past the magic item's level limit. Example: raising a level 3 spell to a level 4 spell (say by heighten spell) would raise the DC from 14 to 16.
Caster level however can be increased to whatever your maximum is. But that raises the price accordingly.
- Gauss
+1
yes, Sangalor is wrong, and I agree, it's too pricy.Only time I raise caster level/buy at higher caster level is haste, Shiled and Bless weapon.
Scrolls of Haste CL 6, I want it to affect all members of the group (including pets).
Wand of Shield at CL 2 and we usually buy wands with bless weapon at CL 2. Reasons are we want to increase the duration of the buff so we have time to call all buffs and sometimes you got to chase down enemies.
Even protective spells like resist energy and barkskin, that would provide an increased protection, are seldom bought at a higher casterlevel.
I was wrong about the DC, yes. I thought I had read somewhere that only when you buy them they are at the lowest DC, but apparently I was wrong :-(
Still, I find crafting wands can be immensely useful. Even if you have remove curse at a low level and you will often fail, it is still alright even if you have to spend 5 attempts - as long as you remove that mummy rot from *all* members of your party instead of only two :-)
Edit:
Koshea, it looks like you are debating between an evangelist or a buffing/healer build. (Evangelist's lose spontaneous curing spells).No, he wants a caster cleric and two domains. As a caster cleric the core cleric is the best choice.
It was Sangalor that suggested the Evangelist. It's not a bad archetype depending on what you want, but it don't match what Koshea seems do want. It also makes channel energy useless.
Yep, it was me. I suggested it because this way you can do something else than spamming your spells and increase your contribution to the party. In my mind it's quite close to casting. And if you summon assistence, it's usefulness increases even more :-)
For spontaneous cures, buffing and debuffing reach spell will really help. A rod of reach will still be useful as it will allow you to use reach on your highest level spells without increasing the slot level.
As pointed out by other posters spontaneous cures and metamagic - including Reach spell - equals a full round action.
Regarding the casting time of spontaneous cures: Page 113 of the core rulebook states that spontaneous spells (including that cast by clerics) become full full-round actions when combined with metamagic (although rods bypass this).No, Rods does not bypass this.
Correct, it is even specifically mentioned under the "metamagic rods" section. Unless you are talking about a rod of quicken spell, which is also mentioned explicitely :-)
Note: this is not the same thing as a full-round spell which goes off the next round.Yes it is. Why wouldn't it?
There is a confusion about the language here. A full-round action is finished on your turn. You can even split it and complete it next turn.
A 1-round-action is something like summoning. It is finished when your next turn starts or in-between (depending on when you started it).
Regarding Sacred Bond: I agree this spell rocks but for a group the size that Koshea is talking about it may not be feasible. It appears there is no shortage of tanks in Koshea's group and thus there would be a hard time maintaining sacred bonds to each of them without multiple pearls of power (which can be done but the duration is only 10min/lvl and would burn through alot of spellpower even with pearls). - GaussFirst, you can only have one Sacred Bond active at any time.
Second, healing as a concept is impossible in a group as large as Koshea's. Especially if the plan is to heal all members.
Well, channeling just became much more useful. Especially with a merciful healer archetype. As became crafting wands :-)
Zark, you are correct rod's do not decrease the casting time...my bad.
However, page 187 last paragraph of the Core Rulebook states that when a spontaneous spell is increased to a full-round action that it does goes off immediately and not at the start of your next action as a spell with a 1round casting time (full-round spell) does.
Regarding healing, in a group as large as this channel energy becomes more useful (and quick channel takes care of that if it is needed in combat while taking a different standard action). Healing spells on the other hand should be used only on an 'as needed' basis after the buffs and debuffs have been thrown. With that stated, I believe that if a cleric is out of position or doesnt want to close with the BBEG to cast Breath of life on the downed fighter then a Rod of Reach rocks. Having the healing domain STILL saves on spells after the fight is over (free empower @6th level). With less spells used on healing in or out of combat more spells can be used for buffing/debuffing.
- Gauss
Zark, you are correct rod's do not decrease the casting time...my bad.
However, page 187 last paragraph of the Core Rulebook states that when a spontaneous spell is increased to a full-round action that it does goes off immediately and not at the start of your next action as a spell with a 1round casting time (full-round spell) does.
Great Catch. :-)
My bad!
Regarding healing, in a group as large as this channel energy becomes more useful (and quick channel takes care of that if it is needed in combat while taking a different standard action). Healing spells on the other hand should be used only on an 'as needed' basis after the buffs and debuffs have been thrown. With that stated, I believe that if a cleric is out of position or doesnt want to close with the BBEG to cast Breath of life on the downed fighter then a Rod of Reach rocks. Having the healing domain STILL saves on spells after the fight is over (free empower @6th level). With less spells used on healing in or out of combat more spells can be used for buffing/debuffing.- Gauss
+1
But as a healer you have to priority. The fighter here is the obvious choice.
So Sacred Bond on the fighter.
Zark, is there any documentation that states you can only have one sacred bond going at a time? I cannot seem to find anything in the spell description that indicates this. - Gauss
Zark, is there any documentation that states you can only have one sacred bond going at a time? I cannot seem to find anything in the spell description that indicates this. - Gauss
Sorry for the delay.
No, not really but the spell says:"Components V, S, F (a pair of golden bracelets worth 100 gp each worn by both you and the target)"
I have a hard time seeing any DM/GM allowing a cleric having two or three pair of bracelets on a cleric.
I could see a cleric having a pair of mundane bracelets as a focus and a magical pair, but more than that? Probably not. But if a GM/DM is cool with it, then all is fine. :-)
As a DM I see no issue with it as it requires a 3rd level spell being cast for each connection. IRL Ive seen people with many bracelets on at a time. If they were bracers that would be another matter. Being nonmagical there are no game mechanic limitations to wearing many bracelets. Maybe require each bracelet be etched with the name of the recipient to keep them straight though. - Gauss
As a DM I see no issue with it as it requires a 3rd level spell being cast for each connection. IRL Ive seen people with many bracelets on at a time. If they were bracers that would be another matter. Being nonmagical there are no game mechanic limitations to wearing many bracelets. Maybe require each bracelet be etched with the name of the recipient to keep them straight though. - Gauss
My bad. I read bracers. Dyslexia/crappy english got the beter of me.
I have healing Pharasma cleric that just got more fun. :-)
Do you guys have any opinions of whether Knowledge/Repose, Luck/Good, or Luck/Liberty is the best choice for support cleric domains? (I'm thinking Pharasma or Desna)
if taking luck, is fate subdomain worth it?
Lastly, if you had 50 points, what would you recommend for a human cleric build?
