A cone is a 3 dimensional object. It has length, width and height.
That said the reason everyone is fighting tooth and nail to say that it doesn't even hit the halfling is because if you lose a ruling like that early game, what happens when you cast cone of cold. (A spell that doesn't matter if you are looking at it or not.)
The mage has been "doing magic for long enough" to know how to angle spells, but spells also function in a very specific way with respect to a 2D game board. So it becomes a DM decision.
The short version of this is that you should have asked the DM for a ruling within the first 10 minutes of this argument.
As for your private rant you could respond "Why do you think I always play female characters? I want my power!!!"
So does a cone fill upwards as many "cube"/squares as it fills outward? going on a progressive scale?
If asked in this way. Yes.
So does a cone fill upwards as many "cube"/squares as it fills outward? going on a progressive scale?
Yes. A cone is just as tall at its end as it is wide. (So if a cone is 10' wide at its end, it is also 10' tall.)
Thats why its called a "cone". Its 3-dimensional.
And it doesn't matter if you are looking at Color Spray or not. If your in the area, you are affected. Closing your eyes or looking away won't help. Only creatures that are actually sightless (they don't have normal vision, lowlight vision, or darkvision) are unaffected.
His idea would not work.
In the magic chapter look at the "Spellareas" chart. It gives a template.
if you look at the cone example and assume the red circle is the caster and the square in front of the red circle has the halfing(above the number 15) the square directly behind the halfling is also not hit by the colorspray.
Here is a Link to the page.
Here is a link from Sean Reynold saying the game works in 3d. Link
You can't cast over people's heads unless you have elevation or altitude. Tell either the halfling or the caster to move before casting next time.
@Dosgamer: So you are saying that a wizard can't do this?
Note: These are side-views, meaning, the first rows are higher than the lower rows.
h = Halfling
X = Some bad guy
x = some spell effect
Example #1 (a very tall bad guy)
-----------xX--
---------x--X--
------x-----X--
--W---h---X--
Example #2 (a flying bad guy)
------------X--
-----------xX--
---------x-----
------x--------
--W---h------
You are suggesting that the wizard can only hurt these bad guys if he is:
Your version of Example #1 (a very tall bad guy)
------------X--
------------X--
--WxxxxxxxxX--
------h----X--
Your version of Example #2 (a flying bad guy)
------------X--
--WxxxxxxxxX--
---------------
---------------
------h-------
Or in other words, a wizard can't aim upwards whereas an archer or someone throwing something can?
This appears to be something not precisely spelled out in the rules, which were designed for combat that probably 95% of the time can be adequately represented by a 2d grid. This is one of those edge cases when you have to look at the RAI and common sense.
A good way to represent it is to do a 2d cross section of the area sideways, like Jreyst is doing. A cone makes the same type of shape vertically as it does horizontally, and a caster can decide where the cone goes.
[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/image/SpellAreas.jpg]If you look at this image, and imagine the first 15-ft cone image as being the side-view, and the second 15-ft cone image as being the top-view, then a caster certainly could direct a cone so that it avoids a short character.
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The spell effect is broken into five foot cubes for the sake of gaming. The Halfling take up a five foot cube that it parallel with the floor. The Bandits do the same. The cone hits the cube in front of the caster as well as the one above him or below it. The next step back it hits the same two and the one above that and below that. Look at the template in the PRD. There is no way to angle this not to hit the halfling square and hit the square behind him, unless the caster is higher then ground level.
That is why I used the template in the PRD. If it is angled up and you visualize it as vertically then the guy in the 2nd row is safe.
That is why I used the template in the PRD. If it is angled up and you visualize it as vertically then the guy in the 2nd row is safe.
You can't angle it to hit the bandits, but miss the halfling. (Xs are the area hit, W is the wizard, H is halfling, B is bandit, Ground is ground level.)
Fired normally
OOXX
WXXX
GROUND
Angled up:
OXOO
OXXO
OXXX
WOHB
GROUND
Angled straight up:
OXXXOOO
OXXXOOO
OOXOOOO
OOWOHBO
GROUND
The problem is is that despite being half the size of a bandit, the halfling and the bandit are considered the same size, as they both occupy the exact same amount of space, a 5' cube. If the bandit was an ogre instead, you could hit the ogre and miss the halfling. But with both being medium sized, you can't hit the bandit and miss the halfling.
Halflings are small, not medium.
Edit: Yeah, I messed that up. They are different size categories, but both occupy the same exact space - a 5' cube.
Halflings are small, not medium.
Halflings are Small and the bandits (I presume) are Medium. The Wizard is also Medium. They are not the same size. Back in 1st edition, we had a house rule whereby a friendly in the area of effect of a cone could drop prone (we even had an 'in-game' code word to let folks know what was coming down the pike) and miss him over his head.
Master Arminas
Halflings are Small and the bandits (I presume) are Medium. The Wizard is also Medium. They are not the same size. Back in 1st edition, we had a house rule whereby a friendly in the area of effect of a cone could drop prone (we even had an 'in-game' code word to let folks know what was coming down the pike) and miss him over his head.
Master Arminas
True, but as far as the game is concerned, both occupy the same exact amount of space - a 5' cube. Without a playing grid, this can be done. But with the way the rules are written, it can't. You can't angle the blast to hit the bandit, but miss the halfling.
I don't use a playing grid, a battlemap, or minatures. I'm old school: solves a LOT of issues.
Master Arminas
I don't use a playing grid, a battlemap, or minatures. I'm old school: solves a LOT of issues.
Master Arminas
Neither do I (I use miniatures, but not a grid). But as this is a rules question, and the rules assume use of a grid, then that is what we should use to answer the question.
Well, what if it's a wand emitting the cone, and the wand-user holds the wand up high above his head? I can get about 8 feet high with a fully-extended arm, that's well into the next higher 5-foot square.
Well, what if it's a wand emitting the cone, and the wand-user holds the wand up high above his head? I can get about 8 feet high with a fully-extended arm, that's well into the next higher 5-foot square.
It doesn't matter. The spell is still coming from the wizards 5' space. Even a 7' tall creature (still medium sized), with arms fully extended upward, is still considered to only be in that one 5' cube.
And no, I know this doesn't make much sense. But this comes from the same rules that says a 3' creature with a 5' long spear can attack out to the same range as a 6' creature with a 10' spear. (As small and medium creatures have the same reach).
Well, what if it's a wand emitting the cone, and the wand-user holds the wand up high above his head? I can get about 8 feet high with a fully-extended arm, that's well into the next higher 5-foot square.It doesn't matter. The spell is still coming from the wizards 5' space. Even a 7' tall creature (still medium sized), with arms fully extended upward, is still considered to only be in that one 5' cube.
It's 3d, so aren't all of the following possible? (these are sideway views, ground is ---, x is the caster, c are the cubes affected by the cone)
(normal)
00000
00000
0CC00
0CCCx
-----
(5ft higher)
00000
0CC00
0CCC0
0CC0x
-----
(5ft higher angled diagonally up)
000C0
00CC0
0CCC0
0000x
-----
(5ft higher straight up)
000CCC
000CCC
0000C0
0000x0
------
I belive the 5ft higher version should be possible, since looking at this picture (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/image/SpellAreas.jpg) the last of the four line effects is a diagonal one but doesn't start diagonally from the caster but in front of him, how is this any different?
If the halfling is right in front of the caster then shouldn't it be possible to miss him while hitting the bandits, using the second of these four examples?
At the very least, the caster should have been able to take a 5' step to one side and cast the spell: missing the halfling and hitting the bandits. Right?
XXX
XHX
XWX
becomes
XXX XXX
XHX XHX
WXX XXW
or
XXX XXX
WHX XHW
XXX XXX
Master Arminas
A 5 foot step to the side would work.
Maybe the gnome anyway could be ignored if you start color spray on a square instead of on a point.
I kept using the cone that starts on a point before. For someone reason I ignored the one that starts in a square.
I just addressed that in my last post with the idea of starting the spell on a square instead of on a point in space. By starting it on a square the spell should work even if it is angled up, and still hit the bad guy .
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I just addressed that in my last post with the idea of starting the spell on a square instead of on a point in space. By starting it on a square the spell should work even if it is angled up, and still hit the bad guy .
Maybe I'm missing it. Here is it on an angle
B -anditW -izard
H-alfling
X-spell
O-empty square
- - space so browsers show it correctly
OOXXX----XXXOO
OOXXX----XXXOO
OOXXX----XXXOO
BHWOO-or-BBHWO
Here on a square
XXXXX OOOOO
OXXXO XOOOO
OOXXO XXOOO
BHWOO XXWOO
Either he hits both or none.
These are side views
You are right. He still misses. I had it going straight ahead on a square instead of continuing at a 45% angle.
There is an answer. The problem is that it is hard to visualize. That is why I suggest the diagram in the magic chapter. If you keep going up at a 45 degree angle the bad guy will not get hit.
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ok...this got kind of crazy.
and i got lost in the answers.
i'm guessing there is no yes or no answer for this?
The answer is you can not angle it to not hit the halfling and hit the bandits by angling it up. Not by the rules. The rules convert the area of a spell to five foot cubes and provide a template on which cubes are hit, so that there is no ambiguity on what square is hit and which is not. Regardless of how tall the bandits or the halflings are, they both take up the same game space. A 5' cube. It you take the templace and try to position it so the square the halfling is in does not get hit, but the square the bandit is in does, it is just not possible.
Your DM can rule that it can be done, if he wants to, thinking about it on a logic and non-gameist mode. This is well whithin his right and sometimes it makes more semse to rule this way espcially in cases like this where the rules are wonky becuase that is the only way to translate them to a grid, but if you follow the rules as written taking only the game mat into context, there is no pattern that will work.
I'm with Noretoc. Yes, you can certainly aim a spell up or at an angle, but... the game is played in 5' squares. The halfing and the bandits occupy the same size, adjacent 5' square. Your wizard is trying to split the halfing's 5' square, which I wouldn't allow.
Now, if the bandits are 10' tall giants, then yes you can do it. You're hitting the 5' square ABOVE the halfing and then the bandits. Or if the wizard was standing up on a ledge 5' above the halfing, he can do it - he's angling the spell through the 5' square ABOVE the halfing down to the 5' square of the bandits.
As for "not looking", Pathfinder has no facing so there's no such thing as "not looking". If you're in the effect area, you're looking.
And lastly, you argued with the DM for an hour and a half during the game? Bad player. Bad, bad, bad. Let the DM make a ruling, live with it at the time, discuss it after the game.