Torture - Often claimed as always evil. But why? What makes it evil? Is it the pain? Let's define torture. Depending on where you hear it from, it's the excessive suffering on another being. That's generally the connotation that people who label it as always evil think of. For others torture is simply the use of suffering (something displeasing or unwanted forced upon them, usually pain). I assume most poeple would agree that causing another suffering for kicks is probably evil, but what about using it to modify behavior or interrogate? Torture is a bad word for it, I prefer to call it punishment. That's what it really is. So what's the difference between punishment and torture if the motivations are the same and they both use suffering to modify their behavior? Well it's torture if it's excessive of course.
The problem is... "excessive" is a subjective term. At what point does the suffering become excessive? Is it really okay for a parent to spank a child for stealing some candy from his neighbors, and for an adventurer to punch a guy for robbing a lady? What about the lady who smacks a pervert? These reactions are accepted in many areas. Yet at the same time, punching a guy until he tells you where he hid a kidnapped girl is taboo; it's torture. If you allow it where does it stop? What if you start cutting off someone's fingers? Is it only when you maim someone to a point where they can't bounce back that it's gone past being acceptable? Well that might make sense in our own world, but in a world where magic can make heal your broken bones and even ressurect you from the dead, the point where someone can't bounce back can suddenly stretch past our own moral boundaries.
I know at this point, many people will be thinking, "Well in magicland people have access to interrogation techniques that require the other parties cooperation." Yet many people forget that in magicland, that they also have ways to blank out their mind, set up blocks, and guard their private thoughts with magic. These cases require a mastery of magic that neither side may have.
There's also the possibility of using non-physical suffering. These punishments can range from the water board technique to something as silly as forcing someone to endure hours of listening to a tone deaf singer with a cracking voice. In an extreme and magical form you could pump their mind full of false but horrifying experiences. You can make someone's life a living hell without laying a finger on them. Locking someone up and preventing them contact from the things they are attached to can fall under this description if the desired effect is for them to change their behavior or release information.
So where do we draw the line of what is too severe and what isn't? I know what makes me uncomfortable. Personally, I think things can get done without crossing into gore territory; there's no reason you have to remove someone's body parts. I have ideas of what is too far, but can I really set the bar to something everyone agrees on? In Babylon, it was law to cut off the hand of a caught thief. The sad truth is that the moral bar of what is too severe of a punishment is no more absolute between different people than the terms of what is too spicy; people of a similar upbringing and lifestyle will often agree on those terms but not everyone will agree.
What bothers me however is the lack of consistancy of one's morality. Why is it okay to beat the crap out of and/or kill those who threaten you with swords for nothing (and sometimes you'll even get rewards), but it's not okay to beat out information that could save many lives?
Maybe it's the word torture. Torture is a very uncomfortable word. A word with the connotation of excessive, unneeded violence. Torture carries the connotation of evil. Good guys don't torture. No, the good guys punish. Sometimes justice and the well being of others require that you punish the bad guys for withholding the information required to save billions of innocent lives.
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I thought this was an S&M connection thread. :(
Poison is considered bad for the same reasons. Personally I allow poisons in my game. Torture has a bad rep because it is often used to punish, and only to punish, and normally by less than reputable people. You also can really get much good out of it. You torture someone long enough and they will say whatever they think they have to say. I guess the general thought is that if you are going to make someone suffer there should be a point to it .
I really do not want to have a discussion on our messageboards about torture and punishment in the real world, so can you clarify whether or not you're talking about in-game issues?
Ay, I wasn't sure where to place this as in-game torture is often compared to the real world...
I thought this was an S&M connection thread. :(
Edited the title to not get people's hopes up.
I took it as you saying in-game torture is ok, but you were trying to use real-life torture as examples, but real-life ethics and game ethics are very far apart.
If you do want to discuss this then I have debate(what I like to call them) sites that I can give you links to, assuming they are still up. I have not been to many of them in 3 or more years.
I thought this was an S&M connection thread. :(Edited the title to not get people's hopes up.
:(
Poison is considered bad for the same reasons. Personally I allow poisons in my game. Torture has a bad rep because it is often used to punish, and only to punish, and normally by less than reputable people. You also can really get much good out of it. You torture someone long enough and they will say whatever they think they have to say. I guess the general thought is that if you are going to make someone suffer there should be a point to it .
Poison as always evil can really ridiculous because sometimes poisons can be benign such as just stunning or putting someone to sleep thus eliminating unneeded violence, and that's before even going into delving into the differences of poisons, drugs, medicines, and toxins.
I think everyone would agree that suffering without cause is excessive on all accounts and most likely evil. Even that kid who pulls his sister's hair to see her cry has evil tendencies.
Most torture arguments aren't started over pointless torturing, but in regards to interrogation.
I took it as you saying in-game torture is ok, but you were trying to use real-life torture as examples, but real-life ethics and game ethics are very far apart.
My problem is that game ethics seem to be inconsistent, at least to me who tries to view the game as a roleplaying experience, trying to understand how the characters would act in their environment.
I think there's a point at where punishment is acceptable before it becomes torture. Lest you compare the father who spanks his son until the boy tells him where he hid his sister's vital medicine to the aristocrat who is cutting off a thief's fingers one by one until the thief coughs up where he hid the aristocrat's dog.
Where it becomes inconsistent is when the same hero who will state that even non-lethal, non-gory, non-lasting punishment is evil if you're trying to gain information even if it could potentially save people, yet using the same violence and techniques and much, much worse is alright against people that are rushing at you to take your life.
I have a word to speak on the subject of poison being wrongful for Paladins to use. Ravages.
I have a word to speak on the subject of poison being wrongful for Paladins to use. Ravages.
I said can be benign. Ironically it was the Book of Exalted Deeds and it is so nasty and causes so much unnecessary suffering. It's even called ravages... Just another example of how inconsistent good/evil is within gaming circles.
I have never heard of a someone getting a spanking until info was given up. I don't consider spankings as torture either.
Torture is commonly seen as cruel punishment used to get an answer during interrogations. Normally it is bad enough to cause injuries physical or mental.
Slapping someone is not torture to me. Taking a knife, and cutting the side of their face open is.