Suggestion spell question, what would you do?

[Jezai]

So in our last session suggestion was casted on a fighter and she failed her will save. She was then told to "Defend this fortress." This was interpreted that the fighter would defend the fortress with everything in her power, and will proceed to charge and full attack anyone who is attacking the fort. The DM felt this made the spell very powerful and that the spell should have a will save 1/round to shake the spell off.

Do you feel this is an appropriate use of suggestion? What do you believe the ultimate limits of suggestion are regardless of target? (In other words their motives or 'nature') Can this spell cause PCs to attack other PCs? Intelligent monsters to attack other monsters? Do you think it is fair with the 1/round will save? I'm really curious to hear your opinion.

Personally I don't think this was an appropriate use. Using suggestion in this way basically makes it a bad-ass version of Hold Monster that in addition to taking someone (or something) out of combat it causes the creature to waste a lot of resources and do a lot of damage.

[glandis]

Suggestion spell wrote:

Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell

So, yeah - "defending", in this case, might have him TELL people not to attack the fortress, but actually attacking others? Sounds "obviously harmful" to me . . .

[Stockvillain]

Might have her stand guard, warning other folks off from the fortress, or even take a position up in a tower with a ranged weapon. Heck, she'd probably be fine fighting off enemies that she didn't think were a significant threat. Holding out against an entire band of trained hobgoblin mercs marching on the position? Well, maybe "defending" would include sending word for reinforcements? Or fetching those reinforcements?

A lot depends on the personality of the target, too. A bloodthirsty warrior bent on havoc and destruction probably wouldn't bat an eye at putting two feet of steel through any interlopers. A more reserved, tactician-type warrior might consider standing alone against overwhelming numbers to be an "obviously harmful" action.

[Elinor Knutsdottir]

My general interpretation of "Suggestion" is that the victim proceeds as if free willed and that their own will is to do whatever the suggestion is - the magic of the suggestion being to convince the victim that in this case "defending the fortress" is their own idea. Unless the caster is very specific, it doesn't define exactly *how* the victim should carry out the action (and if they're too specific there will inevitably be problems with that too). So, in your example, "Defend this Fortress" has a fairly well understood meaning of "stop any enemy destroying or entering the fortress". But, someone wouldn't consider their previous allies as enemies because of the spell and might therefore not 'defend' the fortress against them. If specifically told to do so then this still wouldn't make them enemies of the fighter and she would talk, use non-violent means and the minimum necessary force would be her last resort - although if the people attacking the fort were those she already considered enemies then charges and full attacks may well be her first response. If specifically 'suggested' to use lethal force on anyone trying to enter the fortress and then pursue that person until they were slain, this is, I think, a legitimate use of the spell although I think there'd be a case for saying it's not terribly reasonable (do you want the fortress defended? or don't you?)

Enchantment spells *are* powerful. If you compare Suggestion with Deep Slumber, (also Enchantment) then if the fighter failed her save she could be coup de grased so I wouldn't say that Suggestion is disproportionately powerful. They tend to fall into the 'save or screwed' category. A save every round would totally mitigate the main benefit of suggestion which is its long duration so I wouldn't encourage that. Unlike Dominate Person, the victim remains themself so I think there are plenty of loopholes and opportunities for interpretation of the suggestion which prevent it being an uber-spell.

I think there have to *be* save-or-screwed spells otherwise it just comes down to a hit point contest and fighters generally low will saves is one of their big weaknesses. And it tends to be VERY bad for the rest of the party if the fighter fails a will save. But at 4th level you have Confusion, which I know at least one ref who has banned for monster use because of the potential for a TPK.

Overall, I think the interpretation of exactly how the fighter should defend the fortress was a bit extreme, but I think that the use of the spell is legitimate.

[Alitan]

'Defend this fortress' is appallingly-vague wording... I don't think it justifies all-out attack, let alone a CHARGE. Charging into an oncoming force will (a) tend to get one killed which (b) prevents defense of the fortress.

While the subject IS stuck with defending the place, having been suggested into doing so doesn't make him/her an automaton, or stupid.

The point about the personality involved is also valid: there ARE warrior-types who WOULD rush in where angels fear to tread, as best defense=good offense. But I think it more likely that orders to defend the fortress would result in a less gung-ho, more measured response.

[Diego Rossi]

Why someone must charge people to defend a fortress? Leaving a fortress is the last thing to do when you are defending it.
A reasonable reaction would have been having the target of the suggestion barring the doors, opening them only to know friendly forces, having him warning away people approaching the fortress, firing warning shots with a bow if neutral parties were approaching too close and eventually engaging them with ranged weapons. Sounding an alarm to signal the approach of enemies/neutrals.

Essentially all the stuff a dutiful and well trained sentinel will do.

Going out of the fortress and charging people that is attacking the fortress is the most moronic thins to do in most instances. Suggestion don't make the target a moron.

[tonyz]

Suggestion, IMO, leaves people their free will as to how to execute the suggestion -- they just think they've decided to do X, and then they do it they way they would normally do it. It's not dominate person, which does strip them of their free will.

If they'd normally charge when defending the castle, they'd charge when suggested to defend it. If not, not.

This is a spell that requires a fair amount of cooperation and thought from DM and player to work properly. Don't overrule the player about what they do without a very good reason (such as "You're obviously meta-gaming in your rationalizations! How would X normally act in this kind of situation?") It does require the player to be willing to play along.

And, yes, this has the potential to backfire. This is why subtlety needs to be the defining characteristic of the skilled enchanter.

[KrispyXIV]

tonyz wrote:

It's not dominate person, which does strip them of their free will.

As a note, its a Compulsion spell, so this is in fact exactly what it does; from the PRD on Charms and Compulsions-

"Compulsion is a different matter altogether. A compulsion overrides the subject's free will in some way or simply changes the way the subject's mind works. A charm makes the subject a friend of the caster; a compulsion makes the subject obey the caster."

That said, the Suggestion in question is very badly worded, and the Fighter would easily be able to interpret it to his best advantage, as interpretation is something Suggestion arguably still allows; a potent suggestion should not allow interpretation.

"This fortress guards and ancient evil, and your friends very presence threatens to unleash it! You must subdue them without delay, at any cost, lest they threaten the entire world!"

Backed up by a decent Bluff check, it not only sounds reasonable (possibly VERY reasonable), it requires the target to waste no time in subdoing his allies at any cost, and makes the target believe that not doing so is in fact harmful.

[Jiggy]

My fighter has 16 INT. If he were hit with suggestion and told to "defend the fortress", he would immediately speak with the captain of the guard about reviewing duty rosters, then intitiate performance reviews on randomly-selected sentries/lookouts, then schedule meetings to brainstorm new defensive tactics, etc.

And he would naggingly insist that his friends help him, perhaps even delegating party members as gophers/liaisons to those overseeing the fortress' defenses.