French Scene: New Foes Enter Initiative Question

[Pax Veritas]

Greetings,
I usually have new NPCs or monsters "roll in" to the existing initiative count if they enter combat later, in subsequent rounds.

Example: The party is fighting skeletal champions for a few rounds and a wraith arrives on round 3. The wraith usually "rolls in" to the existing initiative count.

Question: I was standing outside last night when the electric meter-reader lady suddenly appeared not far from me. I was caught completely flat footed in RL. Thus, I wonder whether I should be giving new combatants a chance for surprise rounds and an opportunity to attack the PCs using their flat footed armor class until they've acted? Should I just be placing the wraith, for example, in the initiative count but allow it to strike at flat foot ACs on its first turn?

Just wondering... I'm open to the idea that I haven't been doing this effectively all these years. Please let me know what you think, or where I may read more about this in the Core Rulebook.

Thanks and Regards,
Pax

[MEEA]

i make PC's who are engaged in combat roll perception to notice new foes.

EDIT: thats not RAW mind you

[Pax Veritas]

>Bump

So, GMs out there--- do you 1) roll into the init count for new combatants entering the existing fray? 2) give them their own surprise round if they enter unnoticed? 3) Follow some other rules--if so, please let me know where PFRPG addresses this.

Many thanks friends,
Pax

[Charlie Bell]

I bring them in at the top of the order, since they can enter any time they like. If for some reason it's unlikely for existing combatants to notice them (invisibility, stealth, etc.), I treat anyone who fails to notice them as flat-footed against their first attack. I don't let monsters that teleport in take full-round or standard actions after they teleport, since teleporting is a standard action, so it doesn't work for teleporting creatures unless they are invisible or otherwise undetected. Summoned creatures, of course, can take full attacks as soon as they appear, but they don't treat anyone as flat-footed.

[Pax Veritas]

Charlie Bell wrote:

I bring them in at the top of the order, since they can enter any time they like. If for some reason it's unlikely for existing combatants to notice them (invisibility, stealth, etc.), I treat anyone who fails to notice them as flat-footed against their first attack. I don't let monsters that teleport in take full-round or standard actions after they teleport, since teleporting is a standard action, so it doesn't work for teleporting creatures unless they are invisible or otherwise undetected. Summoned creatures, of course, can take full attacks as soon as they appear, but they don't treat anyone as flat-footed.

This is exactly what I was wondering. I do a lot of what I call "French Scenes" in combat, meaning third parties enter melee after combat has begun. I rarely if ever place all the foes within visual distance at first, which allows me the roleplaying benefit of describing each set of foes as they enter, for battles where their are what I call "tiered opponents i.e. boss, lackey, minion style". Depending on where the PCs are coming from, and their approach, they may see... skeletons, but don't see the mohrgs, and later the dread wraith arrives... well, that's just an example.

So, it does sound reasonable that new combatants entering the fray might get to attack the PCs FF armor class, provided they fail thier perception checks? It sounds like this is the case. Is there a common modifier to perception during "midst of combat" chaos? I suppose the fog of war effect might imply at least a -2, but more likely a -4 or more to perceive new combatants? The rationale is even though they are ready for combat, battle is very distracting. Any thoughts?

[Mabven the OP healer]

I would think of it this way: It is not really that the new combatants get a surprise round if the pc's fail their perception check (this is somewhat unworkable), it is that the new combatants are hidden until noticed (roll stealth, add distance, lighting, environmental bonuses - this is the number the pc's need to beat with their perception checks). This will work like any other stealth situation in combat - the newcomers need cover or concealment to remain hidden, so getting a single ranged attack against flat-footed ac is very likely, getting a melee attack against flat-footed ac is quite a bit less likely.