"I ready an action to discharge my touch spell when my Ally reaches for me."
Can my ally use a Free action to touch me and my touch spell affect him?
Are you asking can you use one casting of a spell to affect two people?
i would certainly allow it.
if your gm doesn't allow that,
you should be able to use the 'full round action to touch 6 allies'
to get 6 chances to touch your ally...
but i don't see the problem if the target is using their own actions to ensure that you can touch them.
Are you asking can you use one casting of a spell to affect two people?
No he wants to know about using a spell like CLW to affect an ally that is using mirror image. Since technically you have to target him and can possible miss and waste the charge on a image.
Incorrect. You neither roll against Mirror Image nor have the capacity to remove an image for a beneficial touch spell.
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
Mirror Image is protection from d20 rolls. Nothing more, nothing less.
I can't find the relevent text but i believe there is something saying that you don't have to roll to touch willing targets.
If i'm wrong however then yes cure light wounds would have a chance to hit a image.
I can't find the relevent text but i believe there is something saying that you don't have to roll to touch willing targets.
If i'm wrong however then yes cure light wounds would have a chance to hit a image.
Page 185. Right Column. 7 lines down.
You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent [...]
Mirror Image doesn't stop beneficial touch spells.
Thanks man was having to deal with a 3 yr old and work my search fu. Never a good combo.
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"I ready an action to discharge my touch spell when my Ally reaches for me."
Can my ally use a Free action to touch me and my touch spell affect him?
AS casting a non quikened spell cost at least a standard action you couldn't do that the same round in which the spell was cast. Your standard action for that round was already used up and you need a standard action to ready an action.
Touch discharged spell and allies: as Robb pointed out you don't need a attack roll to touch a friendly target with a touch delivered spell, so the game consider that, even in combat, he is moving in a way that allow you to easily touch him.
You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Robb quote:
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead.
Combining the two texts I would say that the touch delivered spell attack roll is still required, it is simply made automatically in a standard situation (it work the same way of a coup de grace, you still need to attack, even if the result is automatic).
So mirror image or invisibility or displacement will still work and the caster still need to check if he has touched the target or not.
After all the above we can tackle harmon question.
How I see it working:
Round 1 - Caster: Caster cast his touch delivered spell
Round 2 - Caster: the caster use a standard action to get ready to deliver his touch spell
Round 2 - Target: the target move adjacent to the caster and touch his hand, ready to get the spell.
Round 2 - Caster: the caster use his ready action and cast the spell.
If a enemy had a ready action to attack when the target get the spell, he should have some kind of increased chance to get the right image, as the exchange will pinpoint the true position of the target for a brief moment.
Feasible, but I don't think it will be worth it in most instances.
By RAW no attack roll is required. RAI, I don't know.
Combining the two texts I would say that the touch delivered spell attack roll is still required, it is simply made automatically in a standard situation (it work the same way of a coup de grace, you still need to attack, even if the result is automatic).
You can certainly say that if you'd like, however it would make you wrong. You cannot just take parts of completely unrelated rules, and say "Because one works like this, they all work like this."
And I'll point it out to you in another way - Because Coup de Grace doesn't require an attack roll, Mirror Image doesn't stop that, either.
[...] Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll [...]
[...] that requires an attack roll [...]
[...] requires an attack roll [...]
Neither of these require an attack roll.
Just don't. Please, just don't.
To counter the impeding argument before it even happens, that interpretation is wrong too. The correct grammatical form for what you are going to argue would require the wording to be "Whenever you are attacked, or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, [...]", which it is not. So don't waste your time.
The answer to harmon's question has already been tackled. All of that is unnecessary. The caster can simply move up and deliver the spell without any impedance from Mirror Image.
Invisible I would say no since I did not allow it in an actual game. The target had to walk up and touch the cleric's hand. Were it out of combat I would have just allowed it. The same if the caster is blind.
For the others I don't know. I have to look at more because whatever applies to the PC's applies to NPC's in my games. I probably would not force an attack roll, but I might do miss chance.
I would probably not make mirror image work in a real game either unless I made the mirror imaged caster touch the cleric to get the effect of the spell.
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.... I am not speaking of requiring an actual attack roll. The attack roll stay automatic even with mirror image.
What I mean is that for me you need to make an attack, a attack that automatically succeed against one of the images, the problem is that, unless the target touch you you can't be sure of what is the true target.
So against a target with multiple images you will touch a random target between the images and the ally.
When the target is concealed or invisible you get the usual miss chance.
When you are blind you suffer the usual miss chance.When you or the target are blinking you get the usual miss chance.
With the exception of the Blink spell none of the above situations will be a problem outside of combat. It will require a couple of second more to coordinate the two character actions but nothing more.
Can you touch 6 images as part of a full-round action?
I will outline it one more time.
You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Automatically = Does not require a die roll.
Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments.
Since a beneficial spell can touch automatically and does not require an attack roll, you are touched and affected normally.
QED.
These are the rules in the book. If you play by any other interpretation, than you are playing by house rules. If you are playing by house rules, any further discussion about what the rules in the book state are not relevant, as they are being altered.
This will be my last post in this thread, as I will not allow Diego to waste any more of my time. I have frankly invested over 15 minutes of time just looking up rules citations and quotes, to apparently have my effort disregarded because someone has decided to chime in and say "oh, even though I have absolutely no rules citations or evidence to back up my statements, here's how I personally think it should work, despite the fact every actual rules quote from the book contradicts my interpretation."
Oh well. At least I could help Talonhawke understand how it works, so it's not a total wash.
Good luck, Harlon. I hope you figure out something.
I will outline it one more time.
You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.Automatically = Does not require a die roll.
Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments.Since a beneficial spell can touch automatically and does not require an attack roll, you are touched and affected normally.
QED.
These are the rules in the book. If you play by any other interpretation, than you are playing by house rules. If you are playing by house rules, any further discussion about what the rules in the book state are not relevant, as they are being altered.
This will be my last post in this thread, as I will not allow Diego to waste any more of my time. I have frankly invested over 15 minutes of time just looking up rules citations and quotes, to apparently have my effort disregarded because someone has decided to chime in and say "oh, even though I have absolutely no rules citations or evidence to back up my statements, here's how I personally think it should work, despite the fact every actual rules quote from the book contradicts my interpretation."
Oh well. At least I could help Talonhawke understand how it works, so it's not a total wash.
Good luck, Harlon. I hope you figure out something.
Listed. Thanks for the rule find. :)
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Can you touch 6 images as part of a full-round action?
With a held charge you can try 6 times.
I must amend my step by step interpretation.
The caster could ready an action during his turn "when X touch me I will cast CLW", then act when X touch him, so it can be done in one action. The only exception is if the caster or the target are blinking, as they don't have any control on when they are blinking.
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@ Robb
You can see an example of what I am saying under the Coup de Grace rules:
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.You automatically hit and score a critical hit.
....You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
The hit is automatic, but you need to find your target.
The spell effects are specific rules, that supersede the general rule.
The rules say:
- touch spell require a to hit
- when you use a touch spell on a ally the touch is automatic.
but the spell rules say
- when you need to hit a target that is under the effects of concealment, displacement, blink and so on you need to manage those effects.
The to hit is till automatic, but you need to find the right target.
Ok, I'll respond, one more time.
@ Robb
You can see an example of what I am saying under the Coup de Grace rules:
The Coup de Grace rules are not relevant to this discussion. Those rules cover what happen when you are trying to deliver a Coup de Grace attack. They have nothing to do with touch attacks, spells, Mirror Image, or anything even remotely related to this situation.
The spell effects are specific rules, that supersede the general rule.
- touch spell require a to hit
When used against an opponent. Actual citations, please. Not sentence fragments.
You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
There. Please post entire rules statements, not just the parts of them that support your argument. If you wish any further responses/debate on this subject, you will need to post, at a minimum, the full sentence of the rules text you wish to quote. If the sentences before or after are relevant, those must be included as well.
- when you need to hit a target that is under the effects of concealment, displacement, blink and so on you need to manage those effects.
Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. Make the attack normally--If the attacker hits, (remainder omitted, because it's just a description of how to make a d% roll).
Delivering a beneficial touch spell is not an attack. Concealment rules do not apply. A touch is not an attack, a touch becomes a "touch attack" when you are attempting it against a hostile target, or with intent to injure/debilitate/etc.
Blink is the one particular situation I'm not quite sure on. I err towards needing to make a roll, and that is because the spell says "Any individually targeted spell has a 50% chance to fail while you're blinking unless your opponent can target invisible, ethereal creatures." It goes on to use the word "attackers", but this is the ONE CASE so far where I feel it's a poor choice of wording, while the others are quite deliberate, and/or make multiple use of the terms "attackers" or create clear distinction between allies and opponents.
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We can go round and round forever.
You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
For me "You can automatically touch one friend" mean that there is a touch action involved but that it is automatically successful if the target is an ally. And so if other effects can confuse the target location you need to overcome those effects.
For you it mean that there is no need to check if the touch is successful in any way.
For me you are removing what is a requirement of the touch spell, "to touch a target".
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
That the touch is automatically successful don't remove the need to touch the target. If some effect give you a miss chance it is no more 100% sure that you will touch the target.
The to hit is guaranteed, but then you must check the miss chance.If you aren't operating this way you can have the absurd situation in which you don't even know in which square is your invisible friend but you can still touch him without any problem.
We can go round and round forever.
For me you are removing what is a requirement of the touch spell, "to touch a target".
And for me, you are ignoring a critical line of the Mirror Image spell, which is that spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally. A touch spell cast on an ally doesn't require an attack roll, unless the spell's description specifically calls it out. I'm sorry, but this is pretty cut and dry.
If we were talking about those other spells or effects, I might be more inclined to consider budging from my position, but we are not. We are talking about Mirror Image, and with that line included in the text there is just no way to reconcile your position with the text of that spell.
You can argue logic or how other spells and effects can and/or should work all day long, but Mirror Image just doesn't work like that.