Knife Fighting Martial Arts I Know Don't Work

[cranewings]

I am posting this here before going on to find a martial arts forum, although with the high number of martial artists and veterans on these boards, I have a feeling I can draw out a better, less loaded conversation here.

I practiced kali and silat for about 4 years and have done other martial arts sense then. My current training includes a lot of trapping drills for knife fighting.

That said, I think 90% of what I learned is totally useless. Let me explain.

One of the reasons why I think boxing is so good is because it draws on the natural inclinations of the people practicing. A strong an aggressive person who doesn't have any training will, in a lot of cases, punch left and right while trying to dodge and swatting at his opponents attacks. Different people have different levels of natural talent when it comes to this, but men fighting is men fighting. With boxing, the individual is taught to put up a guard, to bring the hits in tighter, sometimes even how to make a real fist, and they learn through practice how to tighten up the dodging and bouncing, but even with all that, it is still refining what men do.

The knife fighting I've learned doesn't have that. I find it is almost totally divorced from an individuals natural inclination. When handed a knife, people will usually rush and thrust over and over like a sewing machine, jump back and forth and slash at each others hands, or flee and swat. Most knife fighting martial arts are just systems of patterns where you superoverdefeat a simple and predicable attack when if from none of the three natural structures. The moves are very complicated, perfect, sensitive, and exact - all things I find it hard to be when I'm scared or stressed, and I'm not likely to ever get a lot of real knife fighting done in my life.

Because the martial arts don't have a connection to the natural inclination of the people doing them, they are almost impossible to use, even in sparring. Watching videos of people in the philipines practice, who are closer to the source, doing the same stupid things western martial artists do: they just jump around slashing at each other's hands and try to slash one another up faster and faster. None of their fancy techniques come out and both of them "die." Basically, all of the training was for nothing. They aren't improved, even in mock combat, let alone the real thing.

So, all comers that want to tell me I'm stupid, that my training was wack, or that I just haven't seen a good martial artist, you are welcome to post. What I'm actually hoping for is one of you worldly geniuses to point me in the right direction to a knife fighting martial art grounded in actual instinct: one that involves sparring, so Krav Maga is right out.

[calagnar]

I'm not a expert. I have spent many years studding martial arts from different parts of the world. I spent some time in the military as well. The first thing that stands out in my head. You think boxing is good? This is not the case. It is good for a sport but not for self defense. The reason for braking natural inclinations. You have to!! If you don't brake your self of natural inclinations and retrain them. Why take martial arts? Any one can follow there natural inclinations. Few of them at all work vs. some one that has trained to fight.

The problem with knife fighting styles. Your going to get cut! They are trying to minimize the amount of damage the other guys going to do. That is why it dose not look fluid. To win most knife fights it's not about style it's about who is willing to take the minor hit to finish the fight. The other side of that is most knife fighters who know what there doing you wont see the knife used until they have used it on you. Attacking with there other side keeping the knife hidden until you give them the opening they want.

I can tell you a few things. I have learned over the years. Training helps but is not a replacement for getting in real fights. Fighting is never the best answer but some times it's the only one allowed to you.

BTW
12 Years with training in Southern Shaolin KungFu, Northern Shaolin KungFu, Praying Mantis KungFu, Tai Chi Chuan, Taekwando, and Jujitsu.
4 Years Active Duity Army Medic.

[cranewings]

Thanks for the post. All good things to think about.

Secondly, is there any martial art or self defense system that has a good catalog of realistic criminal scenarios?

[calagnar]

All traditional martial arts are good. The problem is finding a school that teaches martial arts (Military Art's). Rather then teaching what you need to win tournament's. There are very few in the area I live in. And even then most of them still focus on torments, but still teach traditional martial arts.

Your best option for finding a good school. You will need to find one that dose not win many torments as this is a good sign that they are not teaching how to win. Rather they are teaching how to fight. This ingress your chances the school is really good. As most of these instructors will have spent the most time learning what they know. KungFu, Krav Maga, Jeet Kune Do, or other lesser known styles are a good starting point.

[Jeremiziah]

My main problem with my period of martial arts training was that when I got in fights, nobody ever attacked me from a walking or riding stance. All my defenses were prepared for them to do so, and yet they always just grabbed me and beat the snot out of me.

So yeah, I hear what you're saying.

[calagnar]

That is one of the big secretes of advanced martial art's. Learning to control the distance of the fight. Will lead to wining fights. Most fights are over before they start if one can control the distance.

[Kirth Gersen]

Natural inclinations generally suck. People are naturally inclined to flail their arms about, exhausting themselves and inflicting no injury, or they try some charging football thing that usually ends with them head-butting a wall.

However, even that is a lot better than street-corner robot moves, which is pretty much all you can do with training until you get advanced enough. Good martial arts training forces you to unlearn your natural inclinations, so for the first several years, at least, the practitioner is worse at fighting than he was before he started (at least, that was very much true in my case).

Eventually, if the training is any good*, you do reach a point where you can easily beat any untrained person, though. It just takes a lot of time, effort, and practice to get to that point.

* I'm obviously not talking tae bo or cardio kickboxing here.

[BigNorseWolf]

Here's a martial art that works great against knivesLe Parkour

Seriously, its a knife. Unless you can knock the guy out cold in one hit, you're going to be going shot for shot with something that can pierce your soft tender flesh. Muscle? Fat? It doesn't matter. Once you're through the skin a knife just GOES. If you can reach into someone's chest and pull out their still beating heart with your hand you might come out the "winner". But if you can't then you won't.

Grabbing his arm? That puts your hands near the knife. If the guy is in range of your two and a half foot long arms , how are you planning on not being in range of his two and a half foot long arms AND his knife?

funny thing about philipino knife fighting.. they both have knives. You only worry about the other person hitting you back when their hits are going to kill you. Someone wants to stab you? Stay back. Someone wants to hit you with a fist? You don't NEED defense. You can bum rush them and poke for the gut.

You are , at best, going to take a shallow gash thats going to need to be treated in the emergency room at a cost of around 600 bucks... because YOU might clean your knife, but you have no idea if they do or not. If it hits a tendon or muscle there's a good chance that part of your body will never be the same.. either right after the stab or 10 years later when it develops early arthritis you'll be feeling that spot for the rest of your life.

[houstonderek]

Funny, prison taught me more about fighting than tae kwan do or the army ever did. Lots of "martial artists" got their asses kicked in prison by "untrained" fighters because all that classroom time does squat for you in a real fight.

Yeah, martial arts don't impress me.

[calagnar]

houstonderek wrote:

Funny, prison taught me more about fighting than tae kwan do or the army ever did. Lots of "martial artists" got their asses kicked in prison by "untrained" fighters because all that classroom time does squat for you in a real fight.

Yeah, martial arts don't impress me.

I get told this allot. Right before they get the snot beat out of them for doing something stupid. I spent way to much time in real fights and practicing traditional martial arts. 99% of the time your right because they spent no time learning martial arts. And spent all there time learning how to win tournaments.

Edit : Two very very different things as fighting goes. And my dad gave me the best piece of advice for fig thing. Pick up something big and heavy next to you, and hit them with it. After there down hit them a few more times to make sure there not faking it. It has been really good advice and I follow it.

[Evil Lincoln]

I've lost every fight I've ever been in. Well, except one (who bullies someone a foot taller than them?)

I love how everyone is a martial arts expert on the internet. That's not directed at anyone specifically, just an observation from someone who makes no claim of competence.

[Freehold DM]

houstonderek wrote:

Funny, prison taught me more about fighting than tae kwan do or the army ever did. Lots of "martial artists" got their asses kicked in prison by "untrained" fighters because all that classroom time does squat for you in a real fight.

Yeah, martial arts don't impress me.

first hand experience beats training simulations eleven times out of ten. That said, I miss practicing martial arts dearly. There were a few courses one could do versus knives specifically (I think maybe 2), but they were very basic- more to get you used to the idea of someone with a knife coming at you. There were about 4 things we were taught to guard against -straight stab, overhead stab ,and various flavors of slashes, but I don't remember much as it's been a few years. Knives are surprisingly deadly weapons and excruciatingly basic -keep your defenses the same and you should be alright. And boxing/tkd are most effective only if you have the reach for it -I'd make a terrible boxer and wasn't much better at tkd due to my short limbs.

[Freehold DM]

calagnar wrote:

houstonderek wrote:

Funny, prison taught me more about fighting than tae kwan do or the army ever did. Lots of "martial artists" got their asses kicked in prison by "untrained" fighters because all that classroom time does squat for you in a real fight.

Yeah, martial arts don't impress me.

I get told this allot. Right before they get the snot beat out of them for doing something stupid. I spent way to much time in real fights and practicing traditional martial arts. 99% of the time your right because they spent no time learning martial arts. And spent all there time learning how to win tournaments.

Edit : Two very very different things as fighting goes. And my dad gave me the best piece of advice for fig thing. Pick up something big and heavy next to you, and hit them with it. After there down hit them a few more times to make sure there not faking it. It has been really good advice and I follow it.

interesting. The one thing every martial art seems to revolve around is how to best exploit a mistake on the part of the attacker. From there, it's all semantics.

[Kirth Gersen]

The whole discussion seems sort of pointless, because in reality, anybody can beat anybody, training and experience notwithstanding -- it's just a matter of what you're willing to do, and how much time you're willing to take to do it.

[cranewings]

I think my martial arts are pretty good. Beating a knife is sort of a cool idea because what it basically asks you to do is beat the person without them touching you after giving them an X addition to their reach.

This isn't an impossible scenario. You can beat people without them so much as touching you so long as you are way better and faster than that person, strength alone not counting.

Knives are interesting because they don't always kill or even stop motion with a single move. You would see the results of being stabbed for a long time, but in the instant of the stabbing, it isn't like suffering impact - which can change things for you right then.

For a martial artists, it shouldn't be above your ambition to become strong and fast enough to injure or knock out someone with a single blow. It also shouldn't be beyond you to aspire to do it without being touched. Just because something is hard doesn't mean you can't work on it.

If you stabbed Mike Tyson in the belly with a 6" knife, and he simultaneously punched you in the face, would you be surprised if you were on the ground before him? If you tried to stab Tyson in the belly, ended up only cutting his arm, and then he punched you in the face and ruined your IQ, would you be surprised?

Martial arts training should be very hard, and that is just for fighting other unarmed people. Training to beat people with a superior position or weapon is even harder.

Martial arts don't usually work because the teachers don't know what the problem is and the students don't train hard enough to beat even other untrained people, let alone dangerous or larger people.

In my OP, I am admitting that I don't believe I get the real problem of the knife, nor do I think my training is good enough, so I started this thread asking if anyone thought they new a good way of going about it.

Side note, I just took my first Krav Maga class the other night. I'm not sure I'm impressed yet. They seem to mostly be training to beat slow, obvious, and stupid attackers.

[BigNorseWolf]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

I've lost every fight I've ever been in. Well, except one (who bullies someone a foot taller than them?)

Drunk people who either 1) want to look tough 2) want an excuse the next morning why they ended up head first in a dumpster 3) Feel a foot taller after drinking

[nathan blackmer]

I don't want to make a mega-post on this...

I appreciate what you're saying, OP. I think boxing is a great fundamental fighting skill, and I do think one of it's strengths is that it builds on things that we do naturally.

I wouldn't claim to be an expert - but I would consider myself proficient in hand to hand, and knife fighting. I completely agree that all the martial arts in the world won't help you against someone bigger, tougher, and meaner.

I think there's a misconception amongst people that have never had to fight that some training makes you suddenly superhuman.

Anyway, to answer the OP - Knife fighting, to me, works a lot better like you said - a little closer to fencing then crazy intricate jumps and knife-waving.

Oh,and basically +10 to what HoustonDerek said. Big, tough, and mean. First hard hit, and when it goes to a grapple landing on top.

[BigNorseWolf]

If you stabbed Mike Tyson in the belly with a 6" knife, and he simultaneously punched you in the face, would you be surprised if you were on the ground before him? If you tried to stab Tyson in the belly, ended up only cutting his arm, and then he punched you in the face and ruined your IQ, would you be surprised?

Not really, here's the thing though... both outcomes are about equally likely.

Mike tyson has decades of training, 12 hours a day of physical conditioning, and some very favorable genetics going for them.

Stabby McGee has a 12 dollar kitchen knife they picked up at walmart and 4 cents worth of electrical tape for a grip.

Stabby McGee may be on the ground before Tyson , but chances are pretty good he's going to get up and have trouble using R's for a few days and get up. A 6 inch knife to the chest has a decent chance of sending someone for a permanent dirt nap.

Does this shot for shot look like a good idea for mike Tyson? No.
Are you mike Tyson? Are you going to train 8 hours a day for years and work out for 12 hours a day? No. So this is going to be an even worse deal for you.

[Freehold DM]

Krav Maga works like a brick to the base of the skull. Incredibly effective if the other person isn't going to or just can't defend themselves, understandably less so if other wise. It's great for one on one, I'm not sure about multiple attackers.

[cranewings]

My point with the Tyson comment is two fold. The first is that I think beating someone with a knife involves hurting them so bad that they can't keep stabbing you, or at least won't. Then you can go to the hospital instead of being one of those people you hear about being stabbed 10 times.

Tyson is an extreme example, but I've seen a lot of BAD fighters knock someone out with a single punch. In fact, it happens so often in local MMA that you almost expect to see it. People, for the most part even trained people, don't do great when they get hit in the face even once.

Lots of murders require that the killer slash and cut and stab the victim dozens of times - just to get them to shut up. I know a couple of people that have been stabbed and they all say the same thing, "I didn't know how bad it was. I could still move and function and it didn't really hurt more than a punch or sharp pinch." This leads me to believe that even if someone is already stabbing you, you can still fight back and if your fighting back is really great and harmful striking, you can prevent being stabbed to death.

I might not train 8 hours a day like Tyson, but I have a long chain of unbroken and very painful training. Training doesn't make perfect. Perfect training makes perfect. That's why so many people fail. They haven't dug in deep to find the truth, but the truth is out there because I believe that there are people who are superior enough to beat a knife without using one.

You really can take a lot of cutting damage and loose a lot of blood, and get really far, before it overcomes you. One time I was with a fire department and we picked up this guy who punched out a plate glass window. We went to his house - the police got their later because they followed his blood train. He walked two miles trailing enough blood to leave a stream like trail and still made it home.

Point: I'm not looking for an easy answer. I'm looking for the answer, however hard it is. I don't believe you when you say it is 50/50 that Tyson would hit the ground first. It just isn't true. Feeble people often don't know they are cut. Strong people can't handle a solid punch, let alone from a terrible fighter, let alone a good one.

I get the realism of thinking beating someone with a knife is hard. I really do. What I think is too bad is that people preach it is so hard that no one should even bother trying to learn about it.

[BigNorseWolf]

cranewings wrote:

My point with the Tyson comment is two fold. The first is that I think beating someone with a knife involves hurting them so bad that they can't keep stabbing you, or at least won't.

Thats one strategy, but its risky because...

Quote:

but I've seen a lot of BAD fighters knock someone out with a single punch.

... Right, because you've seen a lot of bad fighters. You've seen them get lucky.

How many fighters do you know can consistently knock someone else out? What percentage can they knock someone out at... 10%? 50%? 75% ?

Quote:

In fact, it happens so often in local MMA that you almost expect to see it. People, for the most part even trained people, don't do great when they get hit in the face even once.

Punching is my weakness. Getting hit in the face is something I'm an expert on.

.. which brings up a weakness of boxing. Boxing assumes gloves. The reason gloved boxing is arguably more dangerous than bare fisted boxing is that those big round house blows to the side of the head, when done bare fisted, have a pretty good chance of smashing your hand to pieces. Miss that nice soft spot at the temple by an inch or two and you're hitting a hard corner of the head.

Quote:

Lots of murders require that the killer slash and cut and stab the victim dozens of times - just to get them to shut up. I know a couple of people that have been stabbed and they all say the same thing, "I didn't know how bad it was.

Because you never meet anyone that had the other kind of stabbing unless you're also proficient with a Ouija board.

There's also a case of "dead and still moving" : the person has sustained injuries that are going to be lethal, they just haven't stopped moving yet.

Quote:

I might not train 8 hours a day like Tyson, but I have a long chain of unbroken and very painful training. Training doesn't make perfect. Perfect training makes perfect. That's why so many people fail. They haven't dug in deep to find the truth, but the truth is out there because I believe that there are people who are superior enough to beat a knife without using one.

There IS no perfect training. The question here is are you going to be able to do whatever move you think you need to do while the adrenaline is pumping and the conscious part of your brain is still going "huh?" and.. this is very important... can you do it with the CONSISTENCY that you can bet your life on it... because you are. You cannot train that.

Even good training is hard to come by, especially in the US because of liability laws. When chuck norris did this for real against two people he didn't do any disarms or pressure points: he broke two kids arms. Showing someone how to do that on a real person almost requires some pretty dangerous training that most places can't afford the insurence on.

Quote:

You really can take a lot of cutting damage and loose a lot of blood, and get really far, before it overcomes you.

If the guy is dumb enough to slash and unlucky enough to miss an artery you need to live or a tendon you need to fight yes.

Quote:

Point: I'm not looking for an easy answer. I'm looking for the answer, however hard it is. I don't believe you when you say it is 50/50 that Tyson would hit...

Try it for a year. Then take a training knife. Put blue chalk on the sides and red chalk on the tip. Have someone that HASN"T been in your martial arts class and hasn't seen how someone with a knife is "supposed" to attack you be your practice dummy. Offer them 50 bucks if they can "kill" you.

[cranewings]

Big Norse Wolf, I don't disagree with much you said. Of course boxers use gloves, but you can YouTube street fights right now where single punches are nocking people out - and you can train boxing punches with karate intensity by putting fist to concrete. You can box and learn to make a solid fist at the same time.

The fifty bucks thing is kinda a scam. It needs to go higher than that because I need to be able to hit them back.

As far as dumb enough to slash, sure, he might be stabbing to, whatever. You keep attacking my position like you want me to think fighting back is impossible. I don't get your motivation. I'm not claiming I know how to win that fight consistently. Just that I think it can be.

The chalk thing is cute though. The last couple of times I knife sparred I just grabbed the guys wrist and put teeth on his neck while jerking his arms around while he tried to stab me. Another time I kicked someone in the shin hard enough they dropped the knife. If someone shows me the weapon from 5 or 6 feet away and then attacks, provided they weren't my equal without it, I don't do to bad.

The mystery of the knifing where it isn't just a threat display where you can pay them to leave: where you happen to see the attack and can try to defend yourself before you die, is in the split second of defense you get. No one trains against the knifing and that is what actually would get you.

[Urizen]

Reading this reminds me of all the hype involved with Kimbo Slice when he was basically the back-bone of EliteXC on CBS' Saturday Night Fights.

It all crumbled when he got dropped by journeyman Seth Petruzelli in 14 seconds when it was decided that Ken Shamrock could not fight that evening and no amount of money would be enough for him to take on Frank Shamrock.

EliteXC had to file for bankruptcy less than 30 days from that event.

[BigNorseWolf]

Quote:

You keep attacking my position like you want me to think fighting back is impossible. I don't get your motivation. I'm not claiming I know how to win that fight consistently. Just that I think it can be.

Fighting back is certainly possible. I just don't get your motivation for insisting you do it bare handed. My motivation, as far as i have one, would be to get you to realize that if your life is on the line taking out your own knife, grabbing an improvised weapon, or better yet the ancient art of Run-Fu are better ideas. The confluence of circumstances where you can't run away, the person is actively trying to kill rather than rob you , and you can't be armed seems so rare that driving back and forth to the dojo would be more hazardous to your health.

If you're expecting to be mugged, carry two wallets. One has your real money in it, the other has about 10 bucks. You use that wallet when you pay for soda etc. Someone robs you, you hand them that wallet.

[newenglandjeff]

Training all those drills is about improving your odds, not making you invincible. Even a trained Navy SEAL veteran could take one between the eyes by a scrub Jihadist on his first day out.

[cranewings]

Big Norse, obviously my motivation is liking martial arts and thinking fighting a knifer is a good worst case scenario. I don't sleep with other guys wives, squelch on drug deals, or otherwise make bad enemies, so I don't expect to get knifed. Of course you can give the mugger your wallet.

If you find out you are being attacked because it is happening, you don't have time to draw a weapon or even to accelerate away. The only way to win is with whatever stuff you can do right then. I'd like to learn about that stuff.

[psionichamster]

I would suggest subscribing to this guy's school of thought re: knife fights:

Warning, May Contain Awesome.

[Xaaon of Korvosa]

Go study Krav Maga. You will quickly learn how deadly a knife attack can be.

Part of studying martial arts is learning how to remain calm under duress so you can think. The other aspect is teaching your body to go through those motions without thought. With 4 years of knife training you should know how to move, attack and defend reflexively.

[thejeff]

Sure, pull out the knife when someone attacks you with one. Assuming you're carrying a knife (possibly illegal?) and that you get it out in less than a second. Hell, pull a gun if you've got one of those on you and reaching for it won't get you stabbed. Find an improvised weapon if there's something within reach.
Definitely hand over the wallet if that's what he wants.

But you can't count on any of that, so you train for what you can count on.

I've had some martial arts training (Jukido, essentially a self-defense not tournament variant of judo) which included a little bit of practice against knives. Enough to know I wouldn't have a chance, even if I didn't go completely blank and forget everything in a blind panic. So I'm relying on what my sensei said about it. If you take on a knife, you're going to get cut. Accept that and try to make it somewhere non-critical. Take control of the knife hand/arm and get the knife away from him. Then put him down. But you will get cut in the process.

It's probably a biased opinion, since Jukido's a grappling and throwing art, but trying to knock the guy out while he's still got the knife seems like a really bad idea to me.

This approach is also easier to practice/spar, since it doesn't rely on force. You don't have to knock the attacker out or break bones to disarm him. Makes it easier to find people to practice with.

[Xaaon of Korvosa]

thejeff wrote:

Sure, pull out the knife when someone attacks you with one. Assuming you're carrying a knife (possibly illegal?) and that you get it out in less than a second. Hell, pull a gun if you've got one of those on you and reaching for it won't get you stabbed. Find an improvised weapon if there's something within reach.

Definitely hand over the wallet if that's what he wants.

But you can't count on any of that, so you train for what you can count on.

I've had some martial arts training (Jukido, essentially a self-defense not tournament variant of judo) which included a little bit of practice against knives. Enough to know I wouldn't have a chance, even if I didn't go completely blank and forget everything in a blind panic. So I'm relying on what my sensei said about it. If you take on a knife, you're going to get cut. Accept that and try to make it somewhere non-critical. Take control of the knife hand/arm and get the knife away from him. Then put him down. But you will get cut in the process.

It's probably a biased opinion, since Jukido's a grappling and throwing art, but trying to knock the guy out while he's still got the knife seems like a really bad idea to me.

This approach is also easier to practice/spar, since it doesn't rely on force. You don't have to knock the attacker out or break bones to disarm him. Makes it easier to find people to practice with.

Agreed, control the arm attacking, it's the hidden knife that's going to kill you, which is why you don't want to fight.

You see someone reach behind them, control the arm, don't let it get around, cuz it could be a gun, it could be a knife...while controlling the arm, go for a disabling, incapacitating soft tissue strike.

[Crimson Jester]

psionichamster wrote:

I would suggest subscribing to this guy's school of thought re: knife fights:

Warning, May Contain Awesome.

Funny thing about that scene. They filmed it over most of the day. Harrison Ford had food poisoning and kept having to stop filming and run to the port-a-potty. Finally it is said, he turned to Lucas and stated' "The only way Indy is going to win this fight is if I pull out my gun and shoot him." The crew laughed, the were running late anyway, so Lucas shot the scene like that. Which is why Indy looks like hell in this scene. I have a book on the filming of Raiders that goes into details about hidden gems like this. That and R2D2 and C3PO being in the hieroglyphs on the wall in the Arks room.

[Kalshane]

Never had to deal with a knife (thankfully) and hopefully never will.

When I was studying martial arts, the instructor's advice on knives was pretty much what's already been discussed.

1) If they just want your wallet, give it to them.

2) If they want to take you some place else, or you feel they're going to kill you anyway, fight back. Focus on controlling the arm and getting the weapon away from them.

3) When fighting someone with a knife, you WILL get cut.

The master instructor actually got mugged on a business trip once. The mugger came up behind him and put a knife to his back. He was ready to hand over his wallet until the mugger told him to go into a nearby alley. At which point he felt complying was more risky than not, spun around to clear distance and knock the knife away (getting a shallow cut in the process) and proceeded to beat the crap out of the guy.

Of course, he readily admitted it's a good thing the mugger didn't know what he was doing.

[thejeff]

The other key, I've been told, is to take them by surprise. You're not getting into a fight with a guy with a knife. You're taking a knife away from a guy who thinks you're cowed and he's in charge because of that knife. If you mess up that first move and don't get control of the arm or disarm him, even if you're not hurt yet, you are in a lot of trouble.

[BigNorseWolf]

thejeff wrote:

Sure, pull out the knife when someone attacks you with one. Assuming you're carrying a knife (possibly illegal?) and that you get it out in less than a second. Hell, pull a gun if you've got one of those on you and reaching for it won't get you stabbed. Find an improvised weapon if there's something within reach.

Definitely hand over the wallet if that's what he wants.

But you can't count on any of that, so you train for what you can count on.

Well, havinig a knife on you is something more or less under your control.

Quote:

. Accept that and try to make it somewhere non-critical. Take control of the knife hand/arm and get the knife away from him. Then put him down. But you will get cut in the process.

So why is running not an option for you? My foot and back are fubar, so i have the base land speed of an encumbered tortoise, but if you can practice martial arts you can practice quick acceleration.

A swift kick in the nuts seems nearly as effective, less likely to get you cut, easier to practice, and most importantly, something you might remember how to do in an emergency situation.

Quote:

It's probably a biased opinion, since Jukido's a grappling and throwing art, but trying to knock the guy out while he's still got the knife seems like a really bad idea to me.

You don't need him OUT you just need him occupied long enough to split or, if cornered, take out your weapon. A good groin or knee shot should do that.

Quote:

This approach is also easier to practice/spar, since it doesn't rely on force. You don't have to knock the attacker out or break bones to disarm him. Makes it easier to find people to practice with.

Its better for practice it just seems like a crap shoot as to whether it will be in your muscle memory when you actually need it.

[thejeff]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Sure, pull out the knife when someone attacks you with one. Assuming you're carrying a knife (possibly illegal?) and that you get it out in less than a second. Hell, pull a gun if you've got one of those on you and reaching for it won't get you stabbed. Find an improvised weapon if there's something within reach.

Definitely hand over the wallet if that's what he wants.

But you can't count on any of that, so you train for what you can count on.

Well, having a knife on you is something more or less under your control.

Assuming it's legal to carry a worthwhile fighting knife where you are. Even then, where do you have it? Pocket? Snapped down sheath? Under your jacket? If the guy's threatening you from across the room, go for it. If he's in your face or has a knife at your back, reaching for yours is much slower and will get you killed.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Quote:

. Accept that and try to make it somewhere non-critical. Take control of the knife hand/arm and get the knife away from him. Then put him down. But you will get cut in the process.

So why is running not an option for you? My foot and back are fubar, so i have the base land speed of an encumbered tortoise, but if you can practice martial arts you can practice quick acceleration.

A swift kick in the nuts seems nearly as effective, less likely to get you cut, easier to practice, and most importantly, something you might remember how to do in an emergency situation.

Running is good and should probably be your first bet, if you can. Of course, he might run faster. He might have a hand on you already. If he's in front of you, you have to turn or get past him. There are plenty of cases where you can't.

A swift kick in the nuts isn't as easy as it sounds. It's probably the number 1 thing he's expecting you to try. Easy to block or avoid. Hard to do if he's behind you. And since you're not blocking the knife hand, he's going to try to cut you as soon as you're moving.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Quote:

It's probably a biased opinion, since Jukido's a grappling and throwing art, but trying to knock the guy out while he's still got the knife seems like a really bad idea to me.

You don't need him OUT you just need him occupied long enough to split or, if cornered, take out your weapon. A good groin or knee shot should do that.

But the key is to keep from get hurt to bad while getting in that shot. Controlling the knife arm is the way to do that. Even if it's just a sweep or hard block to knock the arm away from your vitals.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Quote:

This approach is also easier to practice/spar, since it doesn't rely on force. You don't have to knock the attacker out or break bones to disarm him. Makes it easier to find people to practice with.

Its better for practice it just seems like a crap shoot as to whether it will be in your muscle memory when you actually need it.

That's why you train. To drill those reflexes into your muscle memory, without having to survive real fights. The first step is to learn the moves consciously and learn consciously what to apply when. Then you do them again and again against different attacks until you don't even have to think about it.

[Freehold DM]

Great responses.

[Sanakht Inaros]

Freehold DM wrote:

Krav Maga works like a brick to the base of the skull. Incredibly effective if the other person isn't going to or just can't defend themselves, understandably less so if other wise. It's great for one on one, I'm not sure about multiple attackers.

I studied Krav Maga for about a year. It's incredibly effective. We did the group-on-one and it wasn't fun getting my ass kicked as part of the group. The instructor kept moving so that there was always a body between him and the rest of us. What we learned: your opponent ALWAYS needs to step in if they're going to try to hurt you; your opponents knee isn't supposed to bend backward. We also learned NOT to group up because sending someone into a group will buy you a couple of seconds.

A lot of it also has to to with the element of surprise. I've always been the small guy who gets picked on. I've always been the small guy who fights back. I've noticed that when that happens, it takes my opponents a couple seconds to realize what's going on. By then, it's usually fight over.

I've studied martial arts on-off for 20 years now. What works for me may not work for you. I prefer very simple moves. Escrima, muay thai, and wing chun/JKD work very well for me. As does wrestling if I get taken down. I also expect to get bloodied and I don't let it bother me. And that's a big difference in mindset. A lot of people don't like seeing their own blood. Nor do they like to see the guy they just bloodied get back up and come after them. In all my years, I've only seen one fight keep going when both were bloodied. Both guys had been drinking and doing drugs.

[Maccabee]

Freehold DM wrote:

Krav Maga works like a brick to the base of the skull. Incredibly effective if the other person isn't going to or just can't defend themselves, understandably less so if other wise. It's great for one on one, I'm not sure about multiple attackers.

Krav Maga is ideal for multiple attackers, on day one you're defending yourself against the rest of the class, and your fighting from a prone position. I've taken various styles in the past two decades and Krav is the only one that stays relevant in a fight.

[Freehold DM]

Intriguing. I've yet to experience this, but I haven't trained in a while. Thank you for your viewpoints.

[Sanakht Inaros]

Just another little thing I've picked up, wear a hat. No one expects you to headbutt them when you're wearing a hat. I've done it twice and both times it bought me just enough time to beat feet. Enough of a running head start to get away. Get them on the nose or just under the nose...

[Valegrim]

I have won a few single and double dagger tournements; but basically, knife on knife combat with fighters of more or less the same training; your both dead or gravely injured, armor of course can modify this a bit; but still the best thing against a dagger/knife/bayonet is chainmail and you just dont see much of this anymore. It is all about physics of how a stab works. Arms and hands dont tend to get stabbed, but slashed so other armors can work fairly well, but there arent very many people out there with gauntlet style armors.

I think fighting is generally about the will; so if you have the will you can act or actually do damage; but most people lack one of either will or experience; ie; stabbing someone isnt like slashing air or dummies and at the speed of infighting it is very difficult to not get injured in a simultaneous or reprizal strike.

raw speed is essential for attack, as our drill instructors used to say; only two kinds of bayonet fighters; the quick and the dead.

defense requires focus rather than speed most of the time and some very effective defenses are as simple short quick slashes or pokes at anything coming your way. Either way; once the combatants close; it will be over pretty quick and keep this in mind; if your willing to get slashed or stabbed; you can nearly always stab or slah in return; thus we have the saying; live by the sword; die by the sword; though I think this is more applicable to daggers. A usuful martial at teaches how to take a blow or make a sacrifice and still walk away afterward; these techniques are very useful; so learn what will incapacitate and what will just leave an ugly scar; dont expose arteries or veins that are close to the muscle and so on.

dealing with a knife fighter when you dont have one is completely different; at least for me, so use what is available if you are not a match for the others skill or strength and such; like a big rock or desk chair; whatever. Being able to outrun your opponent and changing the contest is a good policy; so practice that as well.

all attacks are one of two kinds; straight or circular; the trained attacker tries to confuse them so the wrong defense is applied; thus the more styles and types of attacks you see; the less you fall to illusions. So dont get psyched out and definately try to psyche the other out so they make mistakes.

[cranewings]

Maccabee wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

Krav Maga works like a brick to the base of the skull. Incredibly effective if the other person isn't going to or just can't defend themselves, understandably less so if other wise. It's great for one on one, I'm not sure about multiple attackers.

Krav Maga is ideal for multiple attackers, on day one you're defending yourself against the rest of the class, and your fighting from a prone position. I've taken various styles in the past two decades and Krav is the only one that stays relevant in a fight.

I don't know man. I'm taking Krav Maga right now and I don't think it is very good. They don't train with the knife and they don't practice striking enough. The attacks I'm getting good at defending aren't good attacks. If you don't practice attacking and killing, then you won't be worth very much as a dummy for people to work on their defense with.

I think Krav Maga suffers the same thing as the supposed martial art of the Russian military: Systema (even though their real martial art is Sambo). Systema training is garbage most of the time because as a high level military art, the people who developed it assume that everyone taking it is already a trained killed who can kick, punch and wrestle. If you teach a bunch of difficult or odd techniques to people who aren't already hard, they aren't going to be able to actualize them.

I think civilian Systema and Krav classes are usually feeble.

[AdAstraGames]

My experience is as follows:

1) I used to teach martial arts for a living, including Western Sword.
2) I know people who've taught unarmed and knife fighting for SOCOM.

Pretty much the following seems to hold true:

If you learn to fight bare handed, you learn to "accept" getting hit.

If you learn to fight with something IN your hand, you learn to avoid getting hit.

Taking a fencer and teaching him to use a knife involves unlearning less than taking a puncher and teaching him to use a knife. The puncher sees his prime target area as the torso/throat/head. The fencer sees his prime target area as forearm/torso/throat. Those reflexes are better suited to dealing with a knife.

If you ARE faced with someone using a knife, wrap something - even a wind breaker - around your left forearm and use it to block/entangle/pull someone into your stroke with the right hand.

If you've got a sword (or something the same length) against someone with a knife, go for the side of the knee. They can't chase you if their knee is bending sideways.

Most people can get stabbed and not feel it immediately. It hurts more to take a good bare handed punch than it does to get cut with a sharp knife. Don't rely on pain to slow down your opponent, rely on mechanical damage.

Thrust is faster than cut, for knife and sword. Cut is more useful on the extremities than thrust is, thrust is deadlier on the torso.

You will take a hit - see the advice about wrapping something, anything, around your left hand and using it to block/entangle/pull.

One of the most useful things I've found, translating from Western Sword to knife drills is parry-riposte-extension drills. Most of the guys I did knife with had not learned the same drills I had. I had to adjust my targeting because I kept trying to go through the torso on reflex, rather than try for the inside of the elbow, because I was used to a 34" sword rather than a 6" fighting knife, and I REALLY wanted those extra 28"...but they were getting alarmed at missing and almost getting stabbed before they'd realized they'd missed.

Pull your opponent off balance, control the wrist with the knife in it if you can, and again, armor your off-arm and use it to your advantage.

[Sanakht Inaros]

cranewings wrote:

I don't know man. I'm taking Krav Maga right now and I don't think it is very good. They don't train with the knife and they don't practice striking enough. The attacks I'm getting good at defending aren't good attacks. If you don't practice attacking and killing, then you won't be worth very much as a dummy for people to work on their defense with.

I think Krav Maga suffers the same thing as the supposed martial art of the Russian military: Systema (even though their real martial art is Sambo). Systema training is garbage most of the time because as a high level military art, the people who developed it assume that everyone taking it is already a trained killed who can kick, punch and wrestle. If you teach a bunch of difficult or odd techniques to people who aren't already hard, they aren't going to be able to actualize them.

I think civilian Systema and Krav classes are usually feeble.

I don't know. Where I studied we trained with knives, guns, and multiple opponents. We'd go over the moves in the classroom and then take it outside to the alley and practice. Training changed when he became an ATA affiliate.

AdAstraGames pretty much summed a lot up. I train with a rubber knife the same size and shape as my pocket knife as well as with markers. If you want to see what you're going to look like, grab a white t-shirt and a pair of jeans that you don't care about and go at it with markers.

[Kirth Gersen]

AdAstraGames wrote:

If you ARE faced with someone using a knife, wrap something - even a wind breaker - around your left forearm and use it to block/entangle/pull someone into your stroke with the right hand.

If you've got a sword (or something the same length) against someone with a knife, go for the side of the knee. They can't chase you if their knee is bending sideways.

These are good. Also, because most people don't carry swords, it's worth learning to kick. In taekwondo, you practice kicking people's heads, and people laugh at that, but the cardinal rule is that in applying the skill when attacked, you never kick above the waist -- ever. If you can kick someone's head fast in practice, then you're flexible and well-balanced enough to kick someone's knee very fast for real.

[Darkwing Duck]

There's very little quality control in the martial arts. One instructor can teach some really good stuff and another instructor in the same style in the same town can teach crap.
So, I would not get hung up on whether style x is better/worse than style y.
I've trained in a lot of different systems. The system I got the highest rank in and spent the most time in is complete crap. I didn't know that when I was taking the training. I drank the kool-aid. I know better now. I've trained with a kali expert who trained with the guy who established the hand to hand training for the Philippine army. I know the kali I learned from him is good. Remember, though, that a lot of effective training is not about techniques. It is about movement - staying relaxed, feeling the other person's energy (kinetic and mind/body connection, not 'ki' - whatever the hell that is), staying balanced, moving in a coordinated manner so as to maximize power, etc.

[AdAstraGames]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

AdAstraGames wrote:

If you ARE faced with someone using a knife, wrap something - even a wind breaker - around your left forearm and use it to block/entangle/pull someone into your stroke with the right hand.

If you've got a sword (or something the same length) against someone with a knife, go for the side of the knee. They can't chase you if their knee is bending sideways.

These are good. Also, because most people don't carry swords, it's worth learning to kick. In taekwondo, you practice kicking people's heads, and people laugh at that, but the cardinal rule is that in applying the skill when attacked, you never kick above the waist -- ever. If you can kick someone's head fast in practice, then you're flexible and well-balanced enough to kick someone's knee very fast for real.

This goes back to "Do maximum mechanical damage and run the hell away."

It is amazing how much Medieval Western Sword is designed around two things.

1) Do maximum mechanical damage to someone's sword arm/sword hand/leading leg/head (in about that order)
2) Learn how to move laterally to the angle of attack, while doing hard parry and keeping enough momentum going through that 3 lbs of steel to still do item 1 if you can manage it.

It is also amazing how much having even two layers of loose nylon that's free to move can mitigate knife wounds, where the weapon can't build up the momentum a good sword-swing can.

Knife is "techniques of open hand with all the hazards of sword" in my opinion.

[Shifty]

What I really don't understand is exactly how many knife fights are peolpe planning on getting into that they want to spend a significant portion of their life learning how to deal with said scenario in an entirely theoretical environment?

[Freehold DM]

Shifty wrote:

What I really don't understand is exactly how many knife fights are peolpe planning on getting into that they want to spend a significant portion of their life learning how to deal with said scenario in an entirely theoretical environment?

Knives are never planned for. They're just too damn easy to hide. Better to be prepared for if someone else is going to pull a knife than to be caught completely unprepared.

[Shifty]

Correct. You don't want to get caught with your pants down.

I'm just wondering what proportion of the people posting have really been in an actual combat situation (outside a schoolyard) and how many of those situations actually escalated to the point where a knife was produced? How many knife fights/stabbings have you been witness to?

If you were military, law enforcement, a prisoner, or nightclub bouncer then I could understand the need - but for the average Joe?

Average Joe needs to know pretty much what AdAstra put: Cover one hand to defend from slashes, and then get out of there.