Using the Monsters as PCs rules from the Bestiary, I understand how to figure out their class levels including the effects of racial HD, but I am uncertain how to determine the ability scores.
Do these monsters simply adjust what they have with the set +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 modifiers (as would a NPC monster with class levels), or should ability modifiers be pulled out from their baseline stats and use to modify the point-buy level used in the campaign?
For example (assuming that monstrous PCs are allowed), a Gnoll (CR 1) Ranger 1 can be taken as an equivalent to most races at Ranger 2. The standard gnoll is Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8. With the PC class array of modifiers, we could get something like Str 19, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 6. When pulling out to find the modifiers, we get +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha. Applying these to 20 point buy we might see something like Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 5.
Peeling back to get the modifiers obviously allows for more min-maxing, and it also makes adjusting for the group's point buy easier, but perhaps the monsters should take a hit and have to use the PC class levels set for balance.
How would you recommend handling ability scores for monsters with racial HD used as PCs?
The +4 / +4 / +2 / + 2 / +0 / -2 is to make the race use the elite scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) rather than standard 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. Its really unfair to not allow monster pcs to use ability score modifiers and stat bonus / penalties if you're going to allow monster pcs at all.
As for my recommendation, I recommend not doing it in the first place. Pathfinder isn't balanced for it nor designed for it. If one of your pcs just absolutely has to play a gnoll, reskin a half-orc or something.
ShadowcatX wrote: The +4 / +4 / +2 / + 2 / +0 / -2 is to make the race use the elite scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) rather than standard 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. Its really unfair to not allow monster pcs to use ability score modifiers and stat bonus / penalties if you're going to allow monster pcs at all.
As for my recommendation, I recommend not doing it in the first place. Pathfinder isn't balanced for it nor designed for it. If one of your pcs just absolutely has to play a gnoll, reskin a half-orc or something.
The first part of your post is helpful, but the latter really isn't. Despite your trepidations, the rules for making monstrous PCs exist in the book. I'm merely looking for a little fine tuning on how to apply them.
Also, for undead used as PCs - those that are 'their own monsters' rather than those that are applied templates - would it be best to just factor Constitution as a non-adjustable 0 cost if doing point buy? IOW, it's not intended to be a dump stat, so there's no way to gain points back from it.
Yes, we have considered a ghoul PC (with the Civilized Ghoulishness feat).
HappyDaze wrote: The first part of your post is helpful, but the latter really isn't. Despite your trepidations, the rules for making monstrous PCs exist in the book. I'm merely looking for a little fine tuning on how to apply them. You asked for advice. I gave it. If you don't like the advice you received, that's not on me.
And yes, the rules for playing monsters are in "the book". So are hero points, words of power, and antagonize.
And from "the book": "Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind . . ."
ShadowcatX wrote: HappyDaze wrote: The first part of your post is helpful, but the latter really isn't. Despite your trepidations, the rules for making monstrous PCs exist in the book. I'm merely looking for a little fine tuning on how to apply them. You asked for advice. I gave it. If you don't like the advice you received, that's not on me.
And yes, the rules for playing monsters are in "the book". So are hero points, words of power, and antagonize.
And from "the book": "Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind . . ." I set parameters for the advice, effectively asking the equivalent of "steak or ribs" and your latter statement went outside of the parameters with something like "all meat is bad, go vegetarian" and that's why I said it was unhelpful.
To the OP:
Generally, yes.. you just do the math to get the adjustments then apply them to the PC.
So you would end up with a PC with higher than normal scores.
However, this SHOULD be offset with (I know, bad bad here) RP things.
Yes, yes, crunch shouldnt' be offset with Rp and all that crap.. but seriously.
Dude is playing a G N O L L. He's not gonna go wandering into the local Tavern and ordering a sasperilla. He's going to be attacked by the guards- at best- and at worst just out right slain at 100 paces from the gate. If you assume the other PC's can calm the guards then he'll *still* be watched like a fox in the hen yard and heaven help the guy if he wanders into a village where Gnoll attacks have been frequent.
Now, as for crunch. If you want to do it (nuttin wrong with that) one way you can "fix" it abit is to either lower the scores to make them more fair or just.. cap the guy.
"Look, +22 strength at 2nd level is just too powerful.. if you are going to play this Gnoll your starting strength can't be higher than 20 and nothign else can be higher than 18"
This gives him power, but also forces him to even out the math a little bit.
Alternatively: Pitch an All Gnoll party at the PC's, see if they go for it. That could actually be alot of fun.
A small group of gnolls, tired of the grind against humanity decide to take up arms and fight for the side of right and see if they can improve their place in the world.
food for thought.
-S
Selgard wrote: To the OP:
Generally, yes.. you just do the math to get the adjustments then apply them to the PC.
So you would end up with a PC with higher than normal scores.
However, this SHOULD be offset with (I know, bad bad here) RP things.
Yes, yes, crunch shouldnt' be offset with Rp and all that crap.. but seriously.
Dude is playing a G N O L L. He's not gonna go wandering into the local Tavern and ordering a sasperilla. He's going to be attacked by the guards- at best- and at worst just out right slain at 100 paces from the gate. If you assume the other PC's can calm the guards then he'll *still* be watched like a fox in the hen yard and heaven help the guy if he wanders into a village where Gnoll attacks have been frequent.
I quite agree on the RP issues. This particular character is intended for a game set in/around Katapesh where gnolls are somewhat tolerated. There are even some taverns there where he can order his sarsaparilla after selling his recent catch of slaves.
I'm considering not allowing creatures that start with racial hit dice to have a favored class. It's a minor drawback at first, but it's something.
There are some guidelines on how to adjust monstrous races for player characters in the core rulebook, but let me tell you, those don't work. They have you substract the CR from the chracters level, which just doesn't work, as you can see by just looking at gnolls and lizardfolk together. They have the same CR get about the same amounts of Ability bonuses and penalties, but while lizardfolk go almost entirely naked using mostly their claws, bite and massive natural armor, a gnoll gets most of its dangerousness from the equipment it uses. It wouldn't have any AC worth speaking of without armor, it doesn't have any natural weapons.
My advice is when somebody wants a Racial HD race, make them a variant without the HD.
Look at the Advanced Race Guide playtest pdf, that should help you throw something at least roughly balanced (and certainly a lot more than a regular gnoll) together.
The first PFRPG adventure I GMed I had both a player playing a gnoll and a player playing lizardfolk. I gave them complete overhauls of their races to fix them up to player rce standards.
Didn't succeed entirely on making them balanced, as i did not consider the impact of natural weapons (although those were mostly irrelevant since the lizardfolk was a monk) and ability modifiers hat are any other constellation than +2 physical, +2 mental, -2 either enough. Then again the other players were Aasimar, Tiefling, Drow and only one core race player, a dwarf.
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