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However, if I was running a module I would start the campaign saying "I am using a published module as a GUIDE because I've been too busy with real life to create my own world. But I will deviate from that module whenever I feel like it, I will modify treasure, encounters, goals, NPCS, plot and story line. So even if you find out what module I am using, it won't do you much good to try to read through it to gain any sort of advantage, and will just make me laugh if you complain that I'm not sticking to it."
AD--
I agree with your statement, and the similar statements made by many others here... in my experience though, that's always been the common understanding. I'm kind'a surprised that there are still players popping out of the woodwork who expect everything to be "exactly as written in the module".
Hey here's an idea.
When the dude shows up next week, hand him a character made up by some random third person with a tightly defined background and personality. Any time he even vaguely deviates from the 'script' pull him up and tell him "Thats not the way it was written bro" and keep correcting him, i'm sure he will find that heaps of fun! :)
I have never experienced that.
1.If a player is reading a mod he is playing in that is cheating in my book.
2.I run a ______ inspired adventured, and I reserved the right to change whatever I want.
I am normally a pro-player GM, but if I had players like that I would be a no-player GM because I would not run anything for them.
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My personal opinion on this is that it's fine to change whatever you like however you like, as long as your flyer (or whatever) says "Come play in my Pathfinder game!" and not "Come play in the ORIGINAL, THE ONE, THE ONLY, TOMB OF HORRORS!!!"
If you do that, and then you're like "Oh, except there's 90% less traps and it's full of skeletons because I really like skeletons", and then you're like "RRRAGH I AM THE DM I CAN DO WHAT I WANT!!", that I have a huge problem with.
All my own personal opinion.
I'm sorry, but I don't get how reading an AP or module ahead could be cheating. It doesn't really effect anything.
Reading the module or AP isn't necessarily metagaming.
My personal opinion on this is that it's fine to change whatever you like however you like, as long as your flyer (or whatever) says "Come play in my Pathfinder game!" and not "Come play in the ORIGINAL, THE ONE, THE ONLY, TOMB OF HORRORS!!!"
If you do that, and then you're like "Oh, except there's 90% less traps and it's full of skeletons because I really like skeletons", and then you're like "RRRAGH I AM THE DM I CAN DO WHAT I WANT!!", that I have a huge problem with.
All my own personal opinion.
I think myself and the other GM's were assuming you stayed true to the module, but you don't have to run it exactly as written.
Changing a rogue into a ranger or having the PC's fight 8 goblins instead of 10 is ok.
Changing the entire plot line so that it is not even close is another thing altogether.
Reading the module or AP isn't necessarily metagaming.
If you agree to not use the information in character it might not be an issue, but if you read ahead just to get an advantage that would be an issue, and that is what most of us are referring to.
Example: I have a red dragon who disguises himself as another dragon type. The party assumes it is a _____ dragon. A player obtains a copy of the module and informs the party that it is a setup, and he only knows that because he read ahead.
That would not be cool.
edit:spelling
My personal opinion on this is that it's fine to change whatever you like however you like, as long as your flyer (or whatever) says "Come play in my Pathfinder game!" and not "Come play in the ORIGINAL, THE ONE, THE ONLY, TOMB OF HORRORS!!!"
If you do that, and then you're like "Oh, except there's 90% less traps and it's full of skeletons because I really like skeletons", and then you're like "RRRAGH I AM THE DM I CAN DO WHAT I WANT!!", that I have a huge problem with.
All my own personal opinion.
Sorry to disagree with you so totally, but it is the DM's game and he can do what he wants. Unless you're planning to prepare for encounters ahead of time (and therefore cheat), why does it matter that the AP/module has been changed?
If someone is advertising The Tomb of Horrors, and you as a player have heard great things about it then you would be amped to play the Tomb of Horrors. If the GM changes it too much then at some point you are not really playing the Tomb of Horrors. The GM is only using the same name.
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I'm sorry, but I don't get how reading an AP or module ahead could be cheating. It doesn't really effect anything.Reading the AP/module in order to know what to prepare for ahead of time is definitely cheating. It affects the game play, and reduces the challenge of the encounters. It's like stacking the deck in a card game. How is that not cheating?
Just because you read the AP or module doesn't mean that you are preparing your character as if she knew what was coming. It's quite possible to divorce what you know from what your character knows. If it wasn't, nobody would ever be able to play an AP or module more than once, and people who enjoy reading such things for fun would never be able to enjoy playing them if the opportunity came up, and that's dumb.
Reading the module or AP isn't necessarily metagaming.If you agree to not use the information in character it might not be an issue, but if you read ahead just to get an advantage that would be an issue, and that is what most of us are referring to.
Example: I have a red dragon who disguises himself as another dragon type. The party assumes it is a _____ dragon. A player obtains a copy of the module and informs the party that it is a setup, and he only knows that because he red ahead.
That would not be cool.
Well, that would be metagaming, which is a seperate issue from reading the materiel in the first place.
If someone is advertising The Tomb of Horrors, and you as a player have heard great things about it then you would be amped to play the Tomb of Horrors. If the GM changes it too much then at some point you are not really playing the Tomb of Horrors. The GM is only using the same name.
However what is likely to make the GM start deviating so heavily is the player(s) at the table who continue to 'cleverly' avoid the nasty traps and surprises, because they read the module and are now ruining it for everyone.
It would be like someone sitting in a cinema yelling out the plots and story twists at the start of the movie.
There should be no need for Spoiler Alerts, just as there should be no need to sit there reading the module.
If you do decide you want to cheat, then make sure you take a VERY backseat role in the game when it's on and not ruin it for the others who now won't be exposed to the tricks and traps of Tomb of Horrors because you are ensuring they bypass it all.
In short, its the read-ahead player who ruins things, not the GM.
Well, that would be metagaming, which is a seperate issue from reading the materiel in the first place.
If you really must be a material junkie then read it at the END. If you have to be the first kid on your block who reads anything printed then have the courtesy to GM it.
Well, that would be metagaming, which is a seperate issue from reading the materiel in the first place.If you really must be a material junkie then read it at the END. If you have to be the first kid on your block who reads anything printed then have the courtesy to GM it.
I'll read what I want, when I want, and I'll GM what I want, when I want.
I just can't abide being told when to read adventures. So what if I read it? As long as I'm not metagaming as a result, it doesn't effect anything, and therefore it is NOT cheating.
You'll metagame it most certainly.
So you read it, you turn up at the table, you'll metagame.
I'm not telling you that you can't read it, just that you can't read it and have any expectation whatsoever that I would then run it for you, and you'll just have to accept that some people have a right to be disappointed you chose to limit their entertainment by turning up with meta knowledge and adversely affecting their gameplay.
If someone is advertising The Tomb of Horrors, and you as a player have heard great things about it then you would be amped to play the Tomb of Horrors. If the GM changes it too much then at some point you are not really playing the Tomb of Horrors. The GM is only using the same name.However what is likely to make the GM start deviating so heavily is the player(s) at the table who continue to 'cleverly' avoid the nasty traps and surprises, because they read the module and are now ruining it for everyone.
It would be like someone sitting in a cinema yelling out the plots and story twists at the start of the movie.
There should be no need for Spoiler Alerts, just as there should be no need to sit there reading the module.
If you do decide you want to cheat, then make sure you take a VERY backseat role in the game when it's on and not ruin it for the others who now won't be exposed to the tricks and traps of Tomb of Horrors because you are ensuring they bypass it all.
In short, its the read-ahead player who ruins things, not the GM.
I understand what you are saying I was just addressing the point Jerry was trying to make. I am in no way supporting anyone who cheats.
You'll metagame it most certainly.
Thank you for explaining that, Doctor. Your psychological expertise is much appreciated.
If your GM (like mine) says "Don't read the adventure modules, I'm running X so if you see anything on forums etc just ignore it" then that has become one of the rules of your social contract between you and your GM.
If your GM says "Hey have you read X yet? It's a great story, you're gonna love it. Your character will definitely want to read page Y" then reading the module is fine.
If some guy on the internet says "You cheating slug!" because you read the book, then...well, it's the Internet.
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You cheating slug ;P
Well, some people can't abide players reading the modules the group is playing.
Well, some people can't abide by others telling them when they are and aren't going to metagame.
Oh, wait. It isn't.
I'll leave you with your own conscience to think long and hard about whether I am wrong.
I'm not telling you that you can't read it, just that you can't read it and have any expectation whatsoever that I would then run it for you, and you'll just have to accept that some people have a right to be disappointed you chose to limit their entertainment by turning up with meta knowledge and adversely affecting their gameplay.
YOU are the one limiting people's entertainment, not me.
I understand what you are saying I was just addressing the point Jerry was trying to make. I am in no way supporting anyone who cheats.
See I knew you were good looking AND intelligent :)
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Oh, wait. It isn't.I'll leave you with your own conscience to think long and hard about whether I am wrong.
Divorcing personal and character knowledge is a basic RP skill, yet you seem to be under the impression that it can't be done. How you think GMs run characters when you believe this is beyond me.
are the one limiting people's entertainment, not me.
Actually, the sefish actions undertaken by read-aheaders who subsequently meta-game limits the entertainment of the group you have now spoiled the full thrill (hence limiting) of an adventure for by the use of Meta knowledge.
They didn't get a say in the matter, not only did you limit their fun, but you made the decision to do so regardless of their feelings or wishes. You get a say in whether to read or not, they didn't get a say in having their entertainment ruined.
See how this goes?
One selfish action ruins it for others.
are the one limiting people's entertainment, not me.Actually, the sefish actions undertaken by read-aheaders who subsequently meta-game limits the entertainment of the group you have now spoiled the full thrill (hence limiting) of an adventure for by the use of Meta knowledge.
They didn't get a say in the matter, not only did you limit their fun, but you made the decision to do so regardless of their feelings or wishes. You get a say in whether to read or not, they didn't get a say in having their entertainment ruined.
See how this goes?
One selfish action ruins it for others.
Again, acting like you don't know something you know is a basic RP skill. It's basically what a GM does with any NPC.
Divorcing personal and character knowledge is a basic RP skill, yet you seem to be under the impression that it can't be done. How you think GMs run characters when you believe this is beyond me.
The GM and the Players have two totally differing roles. That should be pretty apparent. Once the gravitas of that profound statement has had time to settle, it should become clear that the GM should know the full module, and the players should not.
Deep huh?
You are acting like you don't know, whereas there should be no acting involved as you shouldn't actually know. Acting like you know is hardly the point however, because you will most certainly be acting on what you know.
Your decision has arbitrarily and selfishly ruined the fun of others as a result.
Divorcing personal and character knowledge is a basic RP skill, yet you seem to be under the impression that it can't be done. How you think GMs run characters when you believe this is beyond me.The GM and the Players have two totally differing roles. That should be pretty apparent. Once the gravitas of that profound statement has had time to settle, it should become clear that the GM should know the full module, and the players should not.
Deep huh?
Yea, because everybody is either a GM or a player, never both. Right. Precisely what planet are you from, anyway?
You are a Player and GM in the same game at the same time?
Divorcing personal and character knowledge is a basic RP skill, yet you seem to be under the impression that it can't be done. How you think GMs run characters when you believe this is beyond me.You are acting like you don't know, whereas there should be no acting involved as you shouldn't actually know. Acting like you know is hardly the point however, because you will most certainly be acting on what you know.
Your decision has arbitrarily and selfishly ruined the fun of others as a result.
If you can act just fine, and it's not as hard as you seem to think, it didn't ruin anybody's fun.
I think one can play a game and not meta-game. An example is someone playing the same AP twice because it was cut short the first time around. It is rare however that someone reads ahead intentionally without using the knowledge.
You are a Player and GM in the same game at the same time?
I have in fact been both a player and a GM in the same game at the same time (I recommend not imitating this), but that's beside the point.
My point is that it is a skill GMs use all the time. Plenty of people are GMs in some games and players in other games. Erefore, plenty of players have this skill.
Didnt say you can't act like you didn't know, just that the actions you took based on that knowledge gave you an unfair advantage over the other players, and also reduced their full enjoyment.
We obviously don't see eye to eye on this one so I will just re-iterate my earlier comment that:
"I'm not telling you that you can't read it, just that you can't read it and have any expectation whatsoever that I would then run it for you, and you'll just have to accept that some people have a right to be disappointed you chose to limit their entertainment by turning up with meta knowledge and adversely affecting their gameplay."
You can do what you want, but please have the courtesy and respect for other peoples feelings, and their wish to have an unadulterated and complete module experience without the hazards of a Metagame session.
read all you want, just let them know that you know.
If they don't care then go fill your boots, however a lot of people quite clearly do care.
I think one can play a game and not meta-game. An example is someone playing the same AP twice because it was cut short the first time around.
That's my point.
It is rare however that someone reads ahead intentionally without using the knowledge.
Perhaps you read it for fun, not expecting the opportunity to play it (I've heard lots of people do this with adventures). Later on, the opportunity to play it comes up. You have intentionally read ahead. You did not intend to use this knowledge to your advantage. Why should you be banned from playing if you are able to divorce character and player knowledge?
Didnt say you can't act like you didn't know, just that the actions you took based on that knowledge gave you an unfair advantage over the other players, and also reduced their full enjoyment.
We obviously don't see eye to eye on this one so I will just re-iterate my earlier comment that:
"I'm not telling you that you can't read it, just that you can't read it and have any expectation whatsoever that I would then run it for you, and you'll just have to accept that some people have a right to be disappointed you chose to limit their entertainment by turning up with meta knowledge and adversely affecting their gameplay."
You can do what you want, but please have the courtesy and respect for other peoples feelings, and their wish to have an unadulterated and complete module experience without the hazards of a Metagame session.
read all you want, just let them know that you know.
If they don't care then go fill your boots, however a lot of people quite clearly do care.
Well, duh, you should let them know that you know. I just don't buy your argument that it automatically reduces everybody else's fun and is selfish.
Well, some people can't abide by others telling them when they are and aren't going to metagame.Yes. We got that. You don't need to keep harping on about it.
Then don't call me selfish and accuse me of ruining everything, and I won't harp at you. Novel, that.
It is rare however that someone reads ahead intentionally without using the knowledge.Perhaps you read it for fun, not expecting the opportunity to play it (I've heard lots of people do this with adventures). Later on, the opportunity to play it comes up. You have intentionally read ahead. You did not intend to use this knowledge to your advantage. Why should you be banned from playing if you are able to divorce character and player knowledge?Because you can't. You can try. You can even do a pretty good job in many circumstances. But things will come up. It will change how you react to the module.
See my earlier post for some thoughts on how OOC knowledge can screw you up, even when you're trying to be good.
I'm not (and I don't think anyone is) accusing you of deliberately
using metagame knowledge to cheat, but it will affect the game.
As long as you aren't revealing things to other players and automatically reacting to monsters, traps, and plot twists before you see them, it shouldn't even be that obvious. Everybody metagames to a degree (case in point, HP), but it's rarely ever an issue, because most players keep it to a subconscious, reasonable minimum.
Reasons why GM's shouldn't follow the AP to the letter:
a) denies creativity on both player and GM (may as well play a video game)
b) roleplay can become forced when some players roleplay would not fit with the story line (like a rogue who's nightly expeditions normally take him somewhere that the AP specifies X happens one night. A GM could, out of consideration for the player, move the event's time or place to an area to allow the RP to continue without killing the rogue)
c) removes need for NPC interaction since the AP will continue regardless
d) removes all replayability in a module
e) turns from being a role playing game to a P&P stat duel
f) Makes most player interaction meaningless (or deadly!)
g) Isn't fun for me and doesn't fit the reason why I play in a role playing group - YMMV
h) How will you learn to fear your GM if he never varies from the "safe" script?
Reasons why GM's should follow the AP to the letter:
a) I'm good at building OP characters which break aspects of the combat system
b) Assuming a good AP design normal players are supposed to be able to complete it with a reasonable level of skill
c) No preparation or deviation means anyone can run it at any point
d) It's easier than tweaking and remembering the various other plot points that result
e) A new GM with new players can learn to play in a somewhat safe environment
Yes, some of the points overlap but I thought I'd give a bit of a list in case the OP wants to use some ideas to reason with his player, and also raise some counter-arguments that someone like myself might use.