Stynkk wrote: Adamantine Dragon wrote: Stynkk, if there are, as you acknowledge no other spell types called out this way, then when I say that rays are singled out, that is literally true, and for you to argue that there is nothing saying rays are the ONLY such spells is pure pedantry, or arguing simply for the sake of arguing.
As it stands rays are the only spells, by raw that can be treated as weapons other than a very rare few which are specifically called out as being treated as weapons (and all of those I know of are melee type spells, not ranged).
So allowing PBS tree feats for non-ray spells is, as I originally stated, a HOUSE RULE. It is a very common house rule, but a house rule nonetheless. I house rule it that way myself.
Err... no. House rules go outside of the rules somehow. You were excluding the weapon-like spells because they are not specifically called out like Rays. I was saying they (Paizo Dev Team) didn't feel the need to call them out because they are quite obviously weapon-like. As you can see from the text below, the development position is that other spells can and are to be considered weapon-like in nature... as Grick illustrates using Sean's FAQ. Which is all I've been saying...
Grick wrote: Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)
For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and
... not to offend or anything, but Flaming Blade Mage's Sword and Spiritual Weapon that was mentioned in that FAQ respons, all "summon" a physical object (a Force object from the last 2) Acid Splash creates a missile / Orb and Acid Arrow creates an arrow (Afaik, by RAW, u do not make the ranged attack with the arrow, that's made by the bow and the arrow does the damage, so Acid Arrow could then NOT be defined as a weapon attack)
Mucronis wrote: not to offend or anything, but Flaming Blade Mage's Sword and Spiritual Weapon that was mentioned in that FAQ respons, all "summon" a physical object (a Force object from the last 2) Acid Splash creates a missile / Orb and Acid Arrow creates an arrow (Afaik, by RAW, u do not make the ranged attack with the arrow, that's made by the bow and the arrow does the damage, so Acid Arrow could then NOT be defined as a weapon attack) It seems strange that you're ok with an undefined weapon (missile in the case of Acid Splash) benefit, but when we have a defined weapon (arrow in the case of Acid Arrow) that's crossing the line. Heck, Arrows are even listed in the Weapon Table in the Equipment section.
You do realize you could probably use the arrow as an improvised thrown weapon to deal damage with it... (not that that's a qualifier, the qualifier is the physical manifestation of the spell as the object being used to attack an enemy).
If you accept the reading for acid splash, you have to accept it for acid arrow.
Starfinder Superscriber
Hi Mucronis!
You're wrong on Acid Arrow:
Acid Arrow
School conjuration (creation) [acid]; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (rhubarb leaf and an adder's stomach), F (a dart)
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect one arrow of acid
Duration 1 round + 1 round per three levels
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
An arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels you possess, the acid, unless neutralized, lasts for another round (to a maximum of 6 additional rounds at 18th level), dealing another 2d4 points of damage in each round.
There's no call for a bow in here. It's a range touch attack that's not a ray, so RAW it doesn't qualify for the various feats.
Dj - they aren't arguing over the feats they are arguing over if it takes penalties for firing into melee and soft cover
Stynkk wrote: Mucronis wrote: not to offend or anything, but Flaming Blade Mage's Sword and Spiritual Weapon that was mentioned in that FAQ respons, all "summon" a physical object (a Force object from the last 2) Acid Splash creates a missile / Orb and Acid Arrow creates an arrow (Afaik, by RAW, u do not make the ranged attack with the arrow, that's made by the bow and the arrow does the damage, so Acid Arrow could then NOT be defined as a weapon attack) It seems strange that you're ok with an undefined weapon (missile in the case of Acid Splash) benefit, but when we have a defined weapon (arrow in the case of Acid Arrow) that's crossing the line. Heck, Arrows are even listed in the Weapon Table in the Equipment section.
You do realize you could probably use the arrow as an improvised thrown weapon to deal damage with it... (not that that's a qualifier, the qualifier is the physical manifestation of the spell as the object being used to attack an enemy).
If you accept the reading for acid splash, you have to accept it for acid arrow. to start with, i did not mention the missile in Acid spalsh as i just thought it redundant when i allso mentioned the arrow in Acid Arrow (guess that was my mistake) as to your listing of weapons in the equipment section.
"Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows."
seems i was mistaken there, it does count as a weapon and i do appologize.
but i would like to make one point that while not realy RAW per say, it does have some merit i belive.
Someone said wrote: Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)
For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
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—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11
when similar spells that, per the devs team, should be affected and counted as weapons, why not mention acid splash / arrow ? would be logical as it is before flaming blade alpabetichaly.
But as this can turn into an everlasting discussion about minor details and interpetation of what and how to view RAW and RAI, i guess a DEV's final word of comman is our best hope.
Mucronis wrote: when similar spells that, per the devs team, should be affected and counted as weapons, why not mention acid splash / arrow ? would be logical as it is before flaming blade alpabetichaly.
But as this can turn into an everlasting discussion about minor details and interpetation of what and how to view RAW and RAI, i guess a DEV's final word of comman is our best hope.
Hey, we all make mistakes. It's ok (who's got two thumbs and makes a few mistakes - this guy).
But on to the non-inclusion of Acid Splash/Arrow/etc in the FAQ, I don't think that the developer was necessarily looking towards the alphabetical list of spells while writing this. They can't give every example in the FAQ so they just list a few to help give players a picture.
I would suggest that in the opinion of the developers Acid Splash and Ray of Frost are nearly identical (rules-wise, both are weapon-like but one is a Ray one is just a miscellaneous weapon) so perhaps the spell of Acid Splash did not require the clarifcation in their eyes.
*uses necromancy powers to raise the thread from the dead*
To all interested parties...
I did some rules sleuthing and I *think* I found the first non-implicit RAW evidence that weapon-like spells like Acid Arrow (well, specifically Acid Arrow) are treated as ranged weapons.
See the quotation below from the Magic Items chapter:
PRD - Core - Magic Items - Armor wrote: Arrow Deflection: This shield protects the wielder as if he had the Deflect Arrows feat. Once per round when he would normally be struck by a ranged weapon, he can make a DC 20 Reflex save. If the ranged weapon (or piece of ammunition) has an enhancement bonus, the DC increases by that amount. If he succeeds, the shield deflects the weapon. He must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn't count as an action. Exceptional ranged weapons, such as boulders hurled by giants or acid arrows, can't be deflected.
Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield; Price +2 bonus.
So, yeah... pretty much confirms the theory regarding weapon-like spells.
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