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In all honesty I believe the Rage Pounce was meant to be used with the claws that are granted with lesser totem but the designers apparently thought it was okay to allow manufactured weapons to the mix. So you could have a barbarian that charges, uses Rage Pounce with his lance and get essentially 4 charge lance attacks all in one move. I think the devs made a mistake with this one.
There are like five billion other threads on this topic.
If anything, the mistake is with the lance / spirited charge. The x3 damage on all weapon dice and non-dice bonus damage is what makes this obscene. If that was limited to your FIRST attack on a charge only, this wouldn't even be an issue.
Besides, around the time a Barbarian gets ragelancepounce, Mounted Ranger is getting Mounted Skirmisher and doing the same exact thing. Fighter and Paladin have to wait till level 14-15, but they also get it. Anyone dipping Sohei Monk is getting it as early as level 1 (I'd dip at 2 or later to avoid the godawful starting wealth and low BAB/HD, but that's just me).
There are like five billion other threads on this topic.
Be that as it may, this is the first time that I've run across the topic. As I said in a previous thread - Lance-pouncing seems silly and furthermore, if the Devs think it is cool, then I think they're silly too. :)
If anything, the mistake is with the lance / spirited charge. The x3 damage on all weapon dice and non-dice bonus damage is what makes this obscene. If that was limited to your FIRST attack on a charge only, this wouldn't even be an issue.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Spirited Charge a full-round action that means you only get one attack anyway?
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I beg devs to solve this soon. Obviously I'm not forced to use such rule in my game but PF should be a more serious game than old 3.0 and 3.5...
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If anything, the mistake is with the lance / spirited charge. The x3 damage on all weapon dice and non-dice bonus damage is what makes this obscene. If that was limited to your FIRST attack on a charge only, this wouldn't even be an issue.Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Spirited Charge a full-round action that means you only get one attack anyway?
So is a charge but Pounce takes that one step farther.
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Spirited Charge modifies the charge action, which is full-round. A character with Pounce gets his full attack routine on any charge, so they both work together.
...but PF should be a more serious game than old 3.0 and 3.5...:)
So a Ragie/Pouncy Barbie (in some sweet Rhino-hide armor) gets all charged up and lances some poor, unsuspecting, baboon and doesn't have to stop at The One attack? He can in fact go all stabbity-stabbity with his lance for multiple strikes? Really? Well, okay. lol
More or less like Ken Shiro, but with a lance.
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Wow...this topic...
Again, MANY MANY classes can do lancepounce. The problem is with lance / spirited charge, not barbarian! Unless you seriously think "dangerous mounted marauding barbarians" is unrealistic, in which case you fail at history forever.
You know what, screw this. Take it one step further. A freaking SUMMONER can pull this off. Much, much, much earlier! And with his pet, no less!
Summoner: Half-Elf and Extra Evolution to get as many evo points as possible.
Eidolon: Quadruped
Evolutions: Arms, Pounce
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency
A hasted barbarian could have one more attack to use.
Good point! Unlike the barbarian, who can't actually create a haste effect himself, the summoner can cast it as a level 2 spell! Man, that barbarian sure is overpowered!
/sick of people whining about melee getting nice things and/or blatantly missing the root of a problem
Yep. Silly, but legal.
Sounds like a lot of laws we have...
Breaking the law, breaking the law...
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Wow...this topic...
Again, MANY MANY classes can do lancepounce. The problem is with lance / spirited charge, not barbarian! Unless you seriously think "dangerous mounted marauding barbarians" is unrealistic, in which case you fail at history forever.
You know what, screw this. Take it one step further. A freaking SUMMONER can pull this off. Much, much, much earlier! And with his pet, no less!
Summoner: Half-Elf and Extra Evolution to get as many evo points as possible.
Eidolon: Quadruped
Evolutions: Arms, Pounce
Feats: Martial Weapon ProficiencyA hasted barbarian could have one more attack to use.Good point! Unlike the barbarian, who can't actually create a haste effect himself, the summoner can cast it as a level 2 spell! Man, that barbarian sure is overpowered!
/sick of people whining about melee getting nice things and/or blatantly missing the root of a problem
Boots of Speed, Potion of Haste, or the Wizard friend can cast Haste on the barb.
I'm sorry but the Summoner isn't going to be doing anywhere close to the damage that the barbarian will be doing.
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There are two central issues that have points of contention:
1) Does pounce allow iterative attacks to be used?
2) If you charge on a mount, does that count as charging yourself for activating the pounce ability?
For me, both answers are obviously no.
Some people insist they are obviously yes. Until we get official errata it will remain unsettled.
Wow...this topic...
Again, MANY MANY classes can do lancepounce. The problem is with lance / spirited charge, not barbarian! Unless you seriously think "dangerous mounted marauding barbarians" is unrealistic, in which case you fail at history forever.
You know what, screw this. Take it one step further. A freaking SUMMONER can pull this off. Much, much, much earlier! And with his pet, no less!
Summoner: Half-Elf and Extra Evolution to get as many evo points as possible.
Eidolon: Quadruped
Evolutions: Arms, Pounce
Feats: Martial Weapon ProficiencyA hasted barbarian could have one more attack to use.Good point! Unlike the barbarian, who can't actually create a haste effect himself, the summoner can cast it as a level 2 spell! Man, that barbarian sure is overpowered!
/sick of people whining about melee getting nice things and/or blatantly missing the root of a problem
Boots of Speed, Potion of Haste, or the Wizard friend can cast Haste on the barb.
I'm sorry but the Summoner isn't going to be doing anywhere close to the damage that the barbarian will be doing.
You're assuming he'll have those items or allies available. Summoner literally has it at his disposal as a class feature (spellcasting). And can be doing the buffing simultaneously as the eidolon is lancepouncing. And the eidolon can be lance pouncing by like level 3.
But let's compare damage at level 10, when bar can finally do this. The eidolon will be large, first off, and probably buffed with enlarge person to be huge if space permits. The barbarian will not be enlarged, because then he wouldn't be able to ride his mount.
Quad has base str of 14. +2 for increases from 4th and 8th HD. +8 bonus for large evolution. +2 for enlarge person. And You can easily afford the (double cost) str +2 ability increase evolution by then, too. Looks like a strength of 28. And the damage of a huge lance, which is 3d6, iirc. Plus any belt of strength bonus, but I'm just going to assume the barbarian has the same item and call it a wash. The Quad also has much better reach than the barbarian will. What's Barbarian looking like for damage?
As long as the eidolon is even comparable to barbarian in damage output, summoner wins for having many other options as well. Also, in 3 more levels, the eidolon would be growing to huge evolution for another +8 to strength.
EDIT: Also factor in that the eidolon is tacking on his entire max natural attacks limit as 2ndary natural attacks after the iterative lance hits, all for x2 damage thanks to spirited charge.
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Wow...this topic...
Again, MANY MANY classes can do lancepounce. The problem is with lance / spirited charge, not barbarian! Unless you seriously think "dangerous mounted marauding barbarians" is unrealistic, in which case you fail at history forever.
You know what, screw this. Take it one step further. A freaking SUMMONER can pull this off. Much, much, much earlier! And with his pet, no less!
Summoner: Half-Elf and Extra Evolution to get as many evo points as possible.
Eidolon: Quadruped
Evolutions: Arms, Pounce
Feats: Martial Weapon ProficiencyA hasted barbarian could have one more attack to use.Good point! Unlike the barbarian, who can't actually create a haste effect himself, the summoner can cast it as a level 2 spell! Man, that barbarian sure is overpowered!
/sick of people whining about melee getting nice things and/or blatantly missing the root of a problem
Boots of Speed, Potion of Haste, or the Wizard friend can cast Haste on the barb.
I'm sorry but the Summoner isn't going to be doing anywhere close to the damage that the barbarian will be doing.
You're assuming he'll have those items or allies available. Summoner literally has it at his disposal as a class feature (spellcasting). And can be doing the buffing simultaneously as the eidolon is lancepouncing. And the eidolon can be lance pouncing by like level 3.
But let's compare damage at level 10, when bar can finally do this. The eidolon will be large, first off, and probably buffed with enlarge person to be huge if space permits. The barbarian will not be enlarged, because then he wouldn't be able to ride his mount.
Quad has base str of 14. +2 for increases from 4th and 8th HD. +8 bonus for large evolution. +2 for enlarge person. And You can easily afford the (double cost) str +2 ability increase evolution by then, too. Looks like a strength of 28. And the damage of a huge lance, which is 3d6,...
I would question about Enlarge Person actually working on an eidolon. The eidolon is going to have less hit points than the barbarian, the barb is probably going to be wearing Rhino Hide which would add 2d6 to the damage.
I'm reading up on the Summoner and I don't see anywhere that an eidolon can take any Weapon Proficiency feats.
Summoner and Eidolon share a life link, they basically have one giant pool of hp made up of both their totals. That may still be less than a raging barbarian's amount, but not by much.
"Share Spells (Ex)
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.
This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells."
"Feats
This is the total number of feats possessed by an eidolon. Eidolons can select any feat that they qualify for, but they must possess the appropriate appendages to use some feats. Eidolon feats are set once chosen, even if the creature changes when the summoner gains a new level. If, due to changes, the eidolon no longer qualifies for a feat, the feat has no effect until the eidolon once again qualifies for the feat."
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There are two central issues that have points of contention:
1) Does pounce allow iterative attacks to be used?
2) If you charge on a mount, does that count as charging yourself for activating the pounce ability?
For me, both answers are obviously no.
Some people insist they are obviously yes. Until we get official errata it will remain unsettled.
Another question might be can two Full-round Actions (Pounce and Charge) stack? When Pouncing your charge forward, but that's not the same as Charging. See the difference?
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Yep. Silly, but legal.
One of the reasons I don't run my game RAW. The game rules don't seem to try to close all loopholes, nor do I think they should try. There are too many variables and combinations. As for me, I would rather realize that the spirited charge damage is assumed to come at the end of a charge, when you normally wouldn't expect to see multiple attacks, and bar its use in an iterative attack from a pounce of all things.
I also like to look at my pounce as being akin to an actual pounce - meaning it's designed to allow simultaneous multiple attacks from multiple weapons and not the iterative attacks of a single weapon. Works just fine for a two-weapon fighter, not so well for a charging lancer.
For me, the rules are there to help me adjudicate a reasonable PC action, not define what sorts of actions are possible based on the specific wording of the rules no matter how divorced from verisimilitude it gets.
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Is it ridiculous? Maybe, is it overpowered? Maybe, is it out of line with the other ridiculous things a character can do? No not really we already have things like simulacrum, wish, miracle, the beastmorph vivisectionist synthesist, and all sorts of other things. And people still take issue with things like sneak attack and the firearm rules.
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Breaking the law, breaking the law...
Judas!
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Correct me if I am wrong but you can not use these together...
First of all in Spirited Charge you have to Ride by attack.
I see nothing in Spirited Charge that states you must be using Ride-By Attack to gain it.
Secondly Lance is a reach weapon, you can not use it once you get to your target.
You charge to the closest square you can attack from. This square is 10ft away, thus you do not move directly next to the target and can use the lance.
The last point I will make is this an attack with a Melee weapon is different from an attack with natural weapons and Beast Totem ability is focusing around Natural attacks.
Recent errata has clarified that you do not have to use only natural attacks with pounce.
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Nevermind on the whole thing.
Spirited Charge (Combat)
Your mounted charge attacks deal a tremendous amount
of damage.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-
By Attack.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action,
you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple
damage with a lance).
Must be mounted to use this feat.
Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the
back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield
a lance with one hand.
You only double the damage from the back of a charging mount.
The reason this wouldn't work is because the Barbarian's Rage Pounce ability would not be transferred to the mount. You can't pounce from the back of a mount unless the mount itself has the pounce ability.
Well, no. The mount could not use spirited charge. Or a lance (centaur mount...?). It would get to pounce with its natural weapons, though. Didn't even think you were considering those factors. Thought you were balking at the barbarian himself pouncing with a lance for x3 damage on every hit. Which, again, many other classes can do, in several cases from an earlier level.
RAW states that the mount charges and you gain the +2/-2 as charge rule. THE MOUNT IS CHARGING, NOT YOUR CHARACTER. Pounce requires your character to charge, which he is not doing while mounted. So as RAW there is no mounted pounce.
By what people here think, spring attack should work while mounted.
RAGELANCEDANCETROUNCEPOUNCE should stay. Why? Because it's awesome. Screw the anally retentive "realism" or notions of so-called "balance" in a game where Godwizards implode universes.
In my game wizards doesn't implode nothing. Using rules RAW every character can have a +20 on all ST from magic gear, so casters should complain more than martials.
I don't like this logic: casters are broken, so make broken something else. If you think that there's a serious problem with caster open a 3d. Not a martial vs casters, a serious 3d where you discuss with proof about casters' balance. (btw, fixing casters is very easy, since you have just to delete broken spells instead of touching the base rule system).|
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RAGELANCEDANCETROUNCEPOUNCE should stay. Why? Because it's awesome. Screw the anally retentive "realism" or notions of so-called "balance" in a game where Godwizards implode universes.In my game wizards doesn't implode nothing. Using rules RAW every character can have a +20 on all ST from magic gear, so casters should complain more than martials.
I don't like this logic: casters are broken, so make broken something else. If you think that there's a serious problem with caster open a 3d. Not a martial vs casters, a serious 3d where you discuss with proof about casters' balance. (btw, fixing casters is very easy, since you have just to delete broken spells instead of touching the base rule system).
It's not about broken spells. Never was, actually. It's about being able to customize yourself into handling *every* situation. And if the situation surprises you, just teleport and come back tomorrow.
If martial classes are to be good at one and only one thing (that being: hitting things), they better be really good at it. Ragelancing helps. You don't.
Lol, the problem is that martial classes are good at only one thing: hitting things. So give them some other way to hit things.
Are you kidding me? -.-
Casters got more option because they die if you burp them in the face and they can't fight with my grandma.
First, they are not so versatile. Second, you teleport yourself or all party? None is trying to disrupt the caster?
Uhm...
Not all casters. Only low BAB casters are frail. The druid and cleric do nice things also.
Casters are very versatile. You get some good players, and you can run an entire game with casters. You can't do that with a bunch of martial characters unless the GM helps them out.
You can ready an action to make a caster use concentration to keep the spell, but you might not hit him, and he still might make the check. You still have to deal with the rest of the party also. Disrupting casters is not all that easy.
Man, back in 3.5, when wizards had a d4 for HD, I was helping a guy build a level 7 tripping and AoO based combat dwarven wizard with huge int and con that could polymorph into a treant and wreck face while still having pretty good hp. Granted, 3E polymorph was MUCH better. But it didn't change your hp, you were still just as "fragile."
Besides, if arcanists are frail and can't fight, does that mean all the stupid sorc bloodlines that give you claw attacks or other melee stuff were knowingly created to be a complete waste of space just to fill pages, and isn't actually viable?
I'd...actually be willing to accept that argument. But I don't see many of the people here being willing to make it. :p
Still a wizard can't stand against a martial full attack.
A cleric or druid... maybe. Same the fighter can't resist the spell DC of that caster, if he can't buy magic gear.
This is why the role of caster is buff and debuff. Haste, fly, protection from evil, etc. Then the melee do the job. And it's very difficult that he miss.
I think that I found what's the problem with caster / non caster concept, but I'll open a new thread.
Still a wizard can't stand against a martial full attack.
Well if the wizard is just standing there eating it to the face then absolutely. But then there are things like invisibility, mirror image, iron skin etc. etc.
Or as is more often the case he simply has a horde of minions, walls, and other nasty thigns between him and the fighter. You'd be surprised how hard a nut a wizard is to crack.
The other thing you're talking about is basic GOD tactics. Basically not wasting time throwing blasts because it's inefficient. Instead you make the BSF uber and sip lemonade while reading Succubus Monthly (scandalous!. A wizard who summoned on top of that heap really doesn't need the fighter much at all.
Edit: Really you don't need me to tell you all this. Simply look at the AM BARBARIAN threads to see the nonsense a wizard can pull to prevent himself from having vengeance rain down on him from the sky.
This is why every caster of the group got spells to make the martials reach the caster. Because is the best way to kill almost all enemy.
As AM and other martial lovers showed, the caster's minion seldom will hit the warrior. Better say never.
Sure a wizard can prevent everyone to hit him, but the same is for everyone that can afford an invisibility ring and an item that cast mind blank, so the point is still the same.
I can't see you, you can't see me, if I hit you'll die and if I fail a save I will die. Quite boring.
This is why GM and players should sit and discuss about balance. But I will explain better in a new thread.
I'm talking about real game in a party, not arena 1vs1. A well made melee will kill him in 1 round. The bard buffs, the mage (if needed) use dimension door and one is gone.
It's not much different from the combo witch + fighter, that gives -6 on ST the another caster oneshot the enemy (or two at high level).