(trying once more since paizo ate my last attempt... grrrrrrrr)
After reading much of the discussion back and forth surrounding this archetype and getting some very good insight there, I'm trying my hand at the character. Below are Attributes and Feats as I have them planned, along with a brief explanation of some of my selections. If I've made any errors or false assumptions, I'd really appreciate it if they were pointed out and explained by someone with experience with the build.
Attributes: (25 point buy)
Str - 14
Dex - 14
Con - 14
Int - 12
Wis - 16 (+2 from being Human, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th)
Cha - 8
Feats:
Human - Toughness
1st - Improved Initiative
Monk 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1 - Perfect Strike
Monk 1 - Precise Shot
Monk 2 - Weapon Focus: Longbow
Monk 2 - Point Blank Shot
3rd - Deadly Aim
Monk 3 - Point Blank Master
5th - Defensive Combat Training
Monk 6 - Improved Precise Shot
Monk 6 - Weapon Specialization: Longbow
7th - Advanced Defensive Combat Training
9th - Snap Shot
Monk 10 - Combat Reflexes
11th - Vital Strike
13th - Improved Snap Shot
Monk 14 - Improved Critical
15th - Improved Vital Strike
17th - Stunning Fist
Monk 18 - Shot on the Run
19th - Clustered Shots
Defensive Combat Training & Advanced Defensive Combat Training: I want this character to be able to stay at range and to be impossible to pin down. Grapple, Sunder and Disarm are all dangers for me and I want those threats mitigated as thoroughly as possible.
Snap Shot: I take this at 9th level, the same level I get Reflexive Shot. Near as I can tell, the two work nearly the same mechanically, but Reflexive Shot won't serve as a pre-req for Improved Snap Shot and I really like the ability to threaten at range.
Stunning Fist: I took this at 17th level, the same level where I also get Ki Focus Bow. As I read it, this should allow me to use Stunning Fist through my arrows (and perhaps Quivering Palm as well?). It also serves as a nice back-up plan if I get caught in melee range without my bow.
I figure equipment-wise I'll focus mainly on a bow (obviously), Bracers of Armor, Belts of Physical Perfection, Headbands of Inspired Wisdom and Cloaks of Protection.
Any advice, critiques or corrections would be greatly appreciated. This is kind of a complicated character and I'm really trying to nail it down. Thanks in advance.
DFT & ADFT: You could just get a locked gauntlet for disarm. Since you can melee w/ unarmed even if your hands are full. Sunder is a valid concern, but IME most DMs don't use it, and having backup bows and keeping yours enhanced as much as possible (each +1 is +2 hardness and +10 hp) goes a long way. Grapple...eh, you can do muay thai knees if someone grapples you, later on I'd just get a ring of freedom of movement, it's a great item. Not saying you HAVE to drop these feats, just saying you can get by without them.
Snap Shot: It requires Rapid Shot, which is worthless to you. Snap Shot itself does literally nothing Reflexive Shot doesn't already give you. All to qualify for Improved Snap Shot way down at 13th level when a Fighter or Ranger could get it at 9 without wasting feats. I would seriously just take this out of your build w/o DM houseruling to let you skip straight to Imp. Snap Shot.
Stunning Fist: Yes, Ki Focus Bow is awesome, you can do all of that. My (unfinished) handbook suggests getting several "fist" feats, since as a monk you get 1/level/day. Also, while you can't use each more than once/round, in a single flurry you CAN do Stunning / Touch of Serenity / Punishing Kick / Perfect Strike. Obviously, how much you invest into these feats (at a minimum, Stunning Fist at 17th) obviously depends on how much time you expect to spend at level 17+.
Equipment: Bracers of armor are painfully expensive, if any ally at all can cast Mage Armor, try and get that from him instead, maybe buying a pearl of power or 2 in case it gets dispelled.
Other notes: Clustered Shots is in there WAY too late. i would take it ASAP, at level 7 if the DM allows (you can only use Clustered Shots when full attacking; when you full attack you have full BAB and thus qualify at level 7). DR is a huge problem for archers, and you'll be full attacking even more than a typical archer, since it also affects your BAB. Speaking of... I know you can't always full attack, but I think Vital Strike feats are a waste for those few situations, and the medium BAB really hurts you with how long it takes to access them at all. If you want something to do on a standard action, I'd suggest Pinpoint Targeting as your 10th level bonus feat.
Are you using Qinggong Monk? You should strongly consider it, there's some nice swap-out options.
DFT & ADFT: You could just get a locked gauntlet for disarm. Since you can melee w/ unarmed even if your hands are full. Sunder is a valid concern, but IME most DMs don't use it, and having backup bows and keeping yours enhanced as much as possible (each +1 is +2 hardness and +10 hp) goes a long way. Grapple...eh, you can do muay thai knees if someone grapples you, later on I'd just get a ring of freedom of movement, it's a great item. Not saying you HAVE to drop these feats, just saying you can get by without them.
Snap Shot: It requires Rapid Shot, which is worthless to you. Snap Shot itself does literally nothing Reflexive Shot doesn't already give you. All to qualify for Improved Snap Shot way down at 13th level when a Fighter or Ranger could get it at 9 without wasting feats. I would seriously just take this out of your build w/o DM houseruling to let you skip straight to Imp. Snap Shot.
Stunning Fist: Yes, Ki Focus Bow is awesome, you can do all of that. My (unfinished) handbook suggests getting several "fist" feats, since as a monk you get 1/level/day. Also, while you can't use each more than once/round, in a single flurry you CAN do Stunning / Touch of Serenity / Punishing Kick / Perfect Strike. Obviously, how much you invest into these feats (at a minimum, Stunning Fist at 17th) obviously depends on how much time you expect to spend at level 17+.
Equipment: Bracers of armor are painfully expensive, if any ally at all can cast Mage Armor, try and get that from him instead, maybe buying a pearl of power or 2 in case it gets dispelled.
Other notes: Clustered Shots is in there WAY too late. i would take it ASAP, at level 7 if the DM allows (you can only use Clustered Shots when full attacking; when you full attack you have full BAB and thus qualify at level 7). DR is a huge problem for archers, and you'll be full attacking even more than a typical archer, since it also affects your BAB. Speaking of... I know you can't...
I'll definitely reconsider the Snap Shot chain in light of what you've said. Perhaps drop Clustered Shots way down and use the 19th level feat for one of the 'Fist' feats you speak of (going to have to research that).
I'm going to look at Qinggong Monk after lunch - I'm not used to operating from the mindset of multiple Archetypes... I assume that there won't be any conflict between them?
Also, Vital Strike should work with the Ki ability that lets you replace the arrow's damage with that of your unarmed strike, yes?
Finally, will Pinpoint Targeting work with Stunning Strike and/or Quivering Palm?
Every Qinggong Monk swap out is optional, so there are no conflicts. You can go 20 levels without taking a single Ki Power and still technically be a "Qinggong Monk." The only question is if you can swap out class features that another archetype replaces (like the Trick Shot of zen archer). RAW answer seems to be no, but can always ask the DM.
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Every Qinggong Monk swap out is optional, so there are no conflicts. You can go 20 levels without taking a single Ki Power and still technically be a "Qinggong Monk." The only question is if you can swap out class features that another archetype replaces (like the Trick Shot of zen archer). RAW answer seems to be no, but can always ask the DM.
Alright, quick re-work of my feats before lunch:
Feats:
Human - Toughness
1st - Improved Initiative
Monk 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1 - Perfect Strike
Monk 1 - Precise Shot
Monk 2 - Weapon Focus: Longbow
Monk 2 - Point Blank Shot
3rd - Deadly Aim
Monk 3 - Point Blank Master
5th - Defensive Combat Training
Monk 6 - Improved Precise Shot
Monk 6 - Weapon Specialization: Longbow
7th - Advanced Defensive Combat Training
9th - Clustered Shots
Monk 10 - Improved Critical: Longbow
11th - Vital Strike
13th - Touch of Serenity
Monk 14 - Shot on the Run
15th - Improved Vital Strike
17th - Stunning Fist
Monk 18 - Pinpoint Targeting
19th - Punishing Kick
Figure I'll take Touch of Serenity before Stunning Fist as a back-up plan if I'm confronted by a melee threat since Will saves are generally tougher to make than Fort saves.
Also, I editted my original response to add these two questions, but you had already responded:
Vital Strike should work with the Ki ability that lets you replace the arrow's damage with that of your unarmed strike, yes?
Will Pinpoint Targeting work with Stunning Strike and/or Quivering Palm?
Thanks again for your excellent advice.
Yes, Vital Strike would work with that. I still don't think it's worth it, though. You could be using that ki for a full on extra attack with flurry.
Pinpoint Targeting: Yes, quivering and stunning palm/fist can be applied to any unarmed strike or attack with a Ki Focus weapon.
Yes, Vital Strike would work with that. I still don't think it's worth it, though. You could be using that ki for a full on extra attack with flurry.
Pinpoint Targeting: Yes, quivering and stunning palm/fist can be applied to any unarmed strike or attack with a Ki Focus weapon.
I'll think about dropping it... might be the kind of thing that looks better on paper than it is in-game. Truth is the Vital feats will be obselete once I hit 17 (assuming I ever do) because whenever I'm getting only a single shot off you can bet it'll be Stunning or Serenity.
I'm really liking this character - in comparison with other 'Arcer types' he seems to have far and away the best defensive capabilities and dramatically better 'non-combat' features. The mobility enhancements alone are worth mentioning, but once you factor in the Ki powers the ability to handle a diverse array of challenges becomes unmatched.
Its the only character I've seen apart from the Master Summoner that I think is a real viable solo candidate.
Regarding Qinggong Monk, the wording on this is confusing...
A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.
Ki powers are abilities that draw on the power of a monk’s ki. The standard monk has several abilities that count as ki powers, such as wholeness of body, abundant step, and empty body. A qinggong monk can learn additional ki powers, which often replaces a non-ki monk ability such as purity of body. Ki powers are divided into three categories: feats, monk abilities, and spells.
In the list above, Purity of Body is not listed as a power he can replace, but in the list below its specifically cited as one that can. Moreover, as I go down the list of potential powers, the levels they are categorized by does not correspond with the levels of powers that can be replaced.
That's just the beginning - for example, I see Timeless Body and Tongue of the Moon and Stars listed as the level 18 options even though 1) there is no level 18 power to switch out for them and 2) you already get both of them standard at 17. Moreover, when its listed, it shows a cost of 1 Ki point for each whereas the abilities as written require no use of Ki at all.
Found a couple of nice feats to replace Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike - Acrobatic (pre-req) and Acrobatic Dodge. That will fit in nicely with the character I'm putting together - just hope the GM allows the feat.
Regarding Qinggong Monk, the wording on this is confusing...
A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.
Ki powers are abilities that draw on the power of a monk’s ki. The standard monk has several abilities that count as ki powers, such as wholeness of body, abundant step, and empty body. A qinggong monk can learn additional ki powers, which often replaces a non-ki monk ability such as purity of body. Ki powers are divided into three categories: feats, monk abilities, and spells.
In the list above, Purity of Body is not listed as a power he can replace, but in the list below its specifically cited as one that can. Moreover, as I go down the list of potential powers, the levels they are categorized by does not correspond with the levels of powers that can be replaced.
That's just the beginning - for example, I see Timeless Body and Tongue of the Moon and Stars listed as the level 18 options even though 1) there is no level 18 power to switch out for them and 2) you already get both of them standard at 17. Moreover, when its listed, it shows a cost of 1 Ki point for each whereas the abilities as written require no use of Ki at all.
for the second bolding, it's most likely an oversight in the wording.
As for Timeless Body and Tongue of the Sun and Moon, the only reason I can see those being on there is so you can swap out a later ability to get them back if you swapped them out at 17th.
The Quingong substitutions really need to be redone so that each new tier of abilities matches up with the level you can access it.
As for Timeless Body and Tongue of the Sun and Moon, the only reason I can see those being on there is so you can swap out a later ability to get them back if you swapped them out at 17th.
The Quingong substitutions really need to be redone so that each new tier of abilities matches up with the level you can access it.
It occurred to me after I made this post that some of the powers on there might be things available to the standard monk, but not to verious archetypes, so they were included in case the archetypes took Quiggong Monk and wanted to switch back into them.
But yeah, the whole thing really needs to be redone, from accurate Ki pool requirements to level synchronization. I figure as long as I go off the text listed in the power itself I'll be fine.
Snake Style has great defensive applications as well if you max ranks in Sense Motive.
That's a great call. Usable 1/round and you have to figure most foes have limited ranged attacks as it is. I'm seriously considering that Snake Style + Skill Focus: Sense Motive over Acrobatic + Acrobatic Dodge...
Figure at 10th level, against one attack - including Touch Attacks - I can put together:
Skill Ranks: 10
Class Skill +3
Skill Focus +6
Snake Style bonus +2
Wisdom Modifier +5
Which effectively makes my armor class against that attack d20+26 or between 27 and 46. Most CR10 creatures seem to have attacks in the +16 to +20 range... now, it isn't going to do me a lot of good going toe-to-toe with a 9-headed cryohydra, but then I'm not going to be doing that very often. Armor Class was going to be a bit tough for me, but this is an elegant solution.
Nice suggestion.
Here's a question - under Monk Vows it states:
"A monk who takes a vow never gains the still mind class feature, even if he abandons all his vows."
Can I presume that to mean that a Zen Archer who takes a vow - any vow - never gets Point Blank Master which is their replacement ability for Still Mind?
A Zen Archer Monk cannot take vows, he does not have a required class feature to get them.
Yet another great boon ZAM offers for newbies: Trap protection. Cause seriously, those vows are massive, MASSIVE traps.
A Zen Archer Monk cannot take vows, he does not have a required class feature to get them.
Yet another great boon ZAM offers for newbies: Trap protection. Cause seriously, those vows are massive, MASSIVE traps.
He never gains and replaces are two different things. Applying the zen archer archetype first allows for monk vows to be taken. Cheers!
A Zen Archer Monk cannot take vows, he does not have a required class feature to get them.
Yet another great boon ZAM offers for newbies: Trap protection. Cause seriously, those vows are massive, MASSIVE traps.
LOL - the gain is minimal... the Vow of Truth was an ideal RP trait for this character who's abilities come in large part from his harmony with the world around him - and deception of any sort is disharmonious. I'll probably RP it regardless.
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you may also want to give sohei monk a look. they are amazing if you go 16 monk/4 fighter. you will have 7 attacks at your highest bab -4,8 if you use a ki point. you gain acess to a number of great fighter items and enchants for weapon training. very reliable damage with little random rolling. it should out damage a zen archer based on consistant damage versus wide range damage. just another option if you choose to look at it.
Stunning fist, you still easily qualify for it at a given level and its a good backup to have.
I also like picking dwarf as the race (Always a fun backstory to write) so that I can pick up steel soul to really drive those awesome monk saves home.
Final build: (I think)
Attributes
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16 (+2 Racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
Cha 8
Feats:
Human - Toughness
1st - Improved Initiative
Monk 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1 - Perfect Strike
Monk 1 - Precise Shot
Monk 2 - Weapon Focus: Longbow
Monk 2 - Point Blank Shot
3rd - Snake Style
Monk 3 - Point Blank Master
5th - Skill Focus: Sense Motive
Monk 6 - Improved Precise Shot
Monk 6 - Weapon Specialization: Longbow
7th - Defensive Combat Training
9th - Clustered Shots
Monk 10 - Improved Critical: Longbow
11th - Deadly Aim
13th - Advanced Defensive Combat Training
Monk 14 - Shot on the Run
15th - Touch of Serenity
17th - Stunning Fist
Monk 18 - Pinpoint Targeting
19th - Crushing Blow
Traits:
Deft Dodger (+1 Reflex saves)
Heart of Clay (+1 Fortitude saves)
Ross, I'm aware RAW you cannot. That's why I said ask your DM. Some make logical houserules. And allowing flurry of blows BAB to qualify for a feat that can only be used when full attacking is a fair request, IMO. Also, Sean K. Reynolds himself thinks it's ok. :)